Visard mask vs banki -- Ichigo vs...

[orangehonda]

BTW hi, I'm new, I'm not all the way up with the manga so don't be too harsh if I say something dumb plz :D -- thought I'd ask something though.

I get the feeling other ppl have trouble untageling the power hierarchy of bleach, I know I do. So ok,

Hitsugaya's Banki at least marginally keeps up with Harribel(2)
Kenpachi without eyepatch obviously was more than enough for Nnoitra(5)
Ichigo's mask was required for Grimmjow(6) ??

So Visard masks are about = with non Visard Banki
I thought Visard mask was a step up from Banki :confused:

Visard-Mask-Ichigo is now about = with Kenpachi-Without-Eyepatch if you go by the espada fights.

So anyway did his Banki get weaker, or did the other captain's get stronger? Either way, Ichigo's Banki by comparison has to be the weakest now, it can't begin to touch an upper espada -- his mask seems to barely keep up.

And Remember Ichigo vs Kenpachi way back when? No way Ichigo's shiaki was = to Nnoitra's resurrection form ! You can't even point out how Kenpachi got stronger durring the espada fight -- this gap is enormous.

Which reminds me, wth was with Ulquiorra's power, Visard mask with all Ichigo's resolution (Orihime was right there) was like nothing -- like nothing! I see in the VL debate it gets even more confusing.

Need to have Aizen walk in, call WW a VL, and have him fight Gin to the death for an upcomming betrayal :p so we can see wth.

The most powerfull villians in the show are complete unknowns in terms of strength and the heros arn't keeping very structured power tiers. Meanwhile the plot is kind of stalling.

Anyway help me out here, these sort of thoughts keep me from really getting into it >.< Maybe there's more backstory comming that will explain?

[UraharaHitsugaya424]

It is an upgrade, but it doesn't mean that all Vizards are more powerful than Shinigami's who only have Bankai, as Yamamoto is more powerful than all of the Vizards.

Hitsugaya is a Genius. His Powers are constantly developing. It's not unreasonable for him to pull out new powerful Attacks. It's not unreasonable for him to grow stronger at a fast rate.

[darkartist]

Yeah, seriously, u can't discuss about power levels in Bleach. Those things constantly change. And i believe the vizard mask can't compare to Bankai. I just get the feeling that the hollow powers add up to the whole power of the user, but that doesn't make the Vizards most powerful than anyone else. As UraharaHitsugaya424 stated, Yamamoto would be more powerful than all of them.
And i would suggest u wouldn't check the power levels from the fights. Fights include skills, resolve, plotkai everything. And if u're looking at it that way, one could easily argue that Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi > Noitora > Bankai Ichigo which sounds really lame and stupid (And yes, there were so many factors at those battles, and that's exactly why u shouldn't use them to think of power levels!) .

[orangehonda]

It is an upgrade, but it doesn't mean that all Vizards are more powerful than Shinigami's who only have Bankai

That makes sense, I guess I got caught up in thinking vizard Ichigo pwns everything ftw, then Ulquiorra beats him ... twice, :( and makes me sad.
Meanwhile other captaions are facing high ranked espada so I figure they should have to die too to be fair :p

But not all captains are the same strength obviously and Ulquiorra's #4 was deceptive, so I guess I'm ok.

Sometimes I get confused thinknig like the crazy Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi > Noitora > Bankai Ichigo -- but you're right that other things are going on in thoes battles.

I guess Ichigo's two SS captian fights give me the most trouble. But if Byakuya and Kenpachi had really seriously wanted to kill Ichigo he would have lost -- and hollow ichigo had to save him a few times anyway.

It might seem silly but simple explanation like that helps me enjoy the series more, thx.

[psych0tic]

I know what TC is saying here...
The theory is if a shinigami gains hollow powers, or if a hollow gains shinigami powers, their limits are erased and they can get stronger.

Hence the reason Aizen took the hogyoku...

Maybe the only ones who actually gain a significant power boost are the ones who have pretty much reached their maximum power.

Shinji, or the other former captains could be examples of this.

With Ichigo, his power rises extremely high, higher then Ulquiorras, or extremely low, like trash...

When Ichigo beat Kenpachi...his power much have been on the higher side....

[Zorrastrón]

it's like dragonball...


te more ya get hurt, the stronger you become

[maincharacter-kai]

It is an upgrade, but it doesn't mean that all Vizards are more powerful than Shinigami's who only have Bankai, as Yamamoto is more powerful than all of the Vizards.

Hitsugaya is a Genius. His Powers are constantly developing. It's not unreasonable for him to pull out new powerful Attacks. It's not unreasonable for him to grow stronger at a fast rate.

I think that TK went too much all out on Yamamoto, he should have sticked with Wise and not made him too powerful. As of now it seems that he could solve the entire situation if he just would fight

[ekidna]

I think that TK went too much all out on Yamamoto, he should have sticked with Wise and not made him too powerful. As of now it seems that he could solve the entire situation if he just would fight

I agree with you, but I think part of Yama not fighting is that he is too powerful. The only time that he maintained Ryuken Jakka's shikai form longer than a single attack was against Shunsui and Ukitake together. He seems like the type that realizes that he is too powerful, and it is far too easy for his allies to be caught in the cross-fire...literally.

[psych0tic]

Yamamotos gonna get PWNED by Aizen Within the next 15-20 chapters I think...

[maincharacter-kai]

Yamamotos gonna get PWNED by Aizen Within the next 15-20 chapters I think...

I sure hope he will be, to bring him down to everyone elses level.

[bleachlover20053]

That makes sense, I guess I got caught up in thinking vizard Ichigo pwns everything ftw, then Ulquiorra beats him ... twice, :( and makes me sad.
Meanwhile other captaions are facing high ranked espada so I figure they should have to die too to be fair :p

But not all captains are the same strength obviously and Ulquiorra's #4 was deceptive, so I guess I'm ok.

Sometimes I get confused thinknig like the crazy Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi > Noitora > Bankai Ichigo -- but you're right that other things are going on in thoes battles.

I guess Ichigo's two SS captian fights give me the most trouble. But if Byakuya and Kenpachi had really seriously wanted to kill Ichigo he would have lost -- and hollow ichigo had to save him a few times anyway.

It might seem silly but simple explanation like that helps me enjoy the series more, thx.

ur premise isn't all that wrong. unless he goes berserk, we can assume that ichigo is the weakest amongst the vizard community. with almost zero experience as both shinigami and using the mask forms, he has the shortest time span amongst them and doesnt even know how to fire a cero

[themonsteroftheisland]

BTW hi, I'm new, I'm not all the way up with the manga so don't be too harsh if I say something dumb plz :D -- thought I'd ask something though.

I get the feeling other ppl have trouble untageling the power hierarchy of bleach, I know I do. So ok,

Hitsugaya's Banki at least marginally keeps up with Harribel(2)
Kenpachi without eyepatch obviously was more than enough for Nnoitra(5)
Ichigo's mask was required for Grimmjow(6) ??

So Visard masks are about = with non Visard Banki
I thought Visard mask was a step up from Banki :confused:

Visard-Mask-Ichigo is now about = with Kenpachi-Without-Eyepatch if you go by the espada fights.

So anyway did his Banki get weaker, or did the other captain's get stronger? Either way, Ichigo's Banki by comparison has to be the weakest now, it can't begin to touch an upper espada -- his mask seems to barely keep up.

And Remember Ichigo vs Kenpachi way back when? No way Ichigo's shiaki was = to Nnoitra's resurrection form ! You can't even point out how Kenpachi got stronger durring the espada fight -- this gap is enormous.

Which reminds me, wth was with Ulquiorra's power, Visard mask with all Ichigo's resolution (Orihime was right there) was like nothing -- like nothing! I see in the VL debate it gets even more confusing.

Need to have Aizen walk in, call WW a VL, and have him fight Gin to the death for an upcomming betrayal :p so we can see wth.

The most powerfull villians in the show are complete unknowns in terms of strength and the heros arn't keeping very structured power tiers. Meanwhile the plot is kind of stalling.

Anyway help me out here, these sort of thoughts keep me from really getting into it >.< Maybe there's more backstory comming that will explain?

Your premise is incorrect on a number of levels.

First off, spoiler: Hitsugaya's Ultimate attack did not put a scratch on Harribel as far as we know.

Second: Do you remember Iceringer and Demora? They were two low-level Arrancar who nonetheless managed to counter the powers of Chad and Ishida. I think that we can all agree that Chad and Ishida are certainly powerful, and were well-above the power level of those two arrancar, and yet they had to switch opponents to defeat them.

Here's my point: the powers needed to defeat Grimmjow were vastly different than the power needed to defeat Nnoitra. Grimmjow was very very very fast and attacked with a variety of techniques (and no, I do not think that Zommari was the fastest Espada; as far as I am concerned, he was full of crap).

Nnoitra, on the other hand, had two defining attributes: a exceedingly strong Hierro and an overwhelming melee offense. Enter Kenpachi, who also specializes in an overwhelming melee offense, and who happens to be the only Shinigami to have ever displayed anything resembling Hierro.

Zaraki's knowledge of how to sharpen his sword, combined with his offense, made him the perfect opponent for Nnoitra. Can you imagine if Kenpachi had went against Grimmjow? Grimmjow would have theoretically torn him to shreds from a distance. Kenpachi is a specialist; his fight with Nnoitra only proves this.

Third, we don't know how Ichigo would have done against Nnoitra because he had just had the stuffing taken out of him by Grimmjow.


Fourth, Ichigo's powers are not representative of his potential. His Bankai is relatively new; he still doesn't know how to use his powers. Remember Ichigo's fight with Byakuya? At first, Ichigo was really really fast, but as time went on, he got slower. Then, when the Hollow took over, Ichigo's Bankai was shown to be unbelievably formidable, capable of rapidly delivering insanely powerful attacks from multiple directions which are nigh-impossible to counter.

Basically, he's still new at his powers, both as a Shinigami and as a Vizard.

I will admit that this is a bit of a cop-out on the writer's part. After all, why have a quick fight when you can draw it out over 10 issues?

If you have issue with the pace, then I would suggest stop reading for a little while. Then, after a few months, catch up. In the meantime, check out other franchises.

*Phew*

[orangehonda]

bleachlover20053
unless he goes berserk, we can assume that ichigo is the weakest amongst the vizard community. with almost zero experience as both shinigami and using the mask forms, he has the shortest time span amongst them and doesnt even know how to fire a cero

I didn't think of it like that -- makes sense


Your premise is incorrect on a number of levels

I agree more with others that it isn't all wrong. But yeah, it was incorrect for a few reasons :D. Afterall you can't really say it was Banki Ichigo only in the SS fights when his hollow was with him from (about) the beginning of everything and helped him out. In this case it makes sense to me now why Ichigo's banki seems weak when his hollow is working to unbalance him like his first fight with Grimmjaw... oops I'm just making more points for you :D yeah, I was off.

I'd been up literally 24 hours before making OP, sounds a little harsh on Bleach, I do enjoy it.


First off, spoiler: Hitsugaya's Ultimate attack did not put a scratch on Harribel as far as we know.

Yeah, but even after her fraccion died she didn't exactally put a scratch on him either. I mean, if Hitsugaya's ultimate did nothing but temporarily disable her (which makes sense to me, shoulnd't have killed her) seems more likely that good ol' Hitsu should have been seriously wounded before pulling out this ultimate deal bc Harribel seems that badass ;) I guess it's another convenient pair up?

This has probably been talked about, just making a point --
Zommari vs each captain 1 on 1 how many wins?
Szayel with his cheep organ thing same question.

They were lower level, and I don't think they'd even get 50% win really, but with such hax abilities woudln't be very satisfying to see one of our beloved captaions go down bc of it -- so good thing they paired as they did :o

[smokin666]

Only person Yamamoto ever beat was some fraccion, probably the most powerful fraccion to date, but still just a fraccion. His power is implied but has never been shown in an upper tier fight to date. Yeah Ukitake Shunsui, who he didn't kill and they never left the level of shikai. The fighing itself was pretty much not shown.

I'm sure he is wicked strong, but it's never been shown to my satisfaction.
The power levels are all over the place, he should have beaten Grimmjow with a little more ease considering he was in control of his vaizered form but that wouldn't make for the beat down comeback from behind formulae that is always followed in nearly every fight in this type of manga/anime.

Think pro-wrestling, which the fighting is nearly identical to. Go old school with it. Hulk Hogan always went back and forth in the fight but the end was always him taking a beat down, get the crowd into it, he hulks up, he wins. Its building up the suspense I suppose in a way.

But god it does get awful repetitive, and Kubo is constantly contradicting himself throughout this series. More than most maybe, I like it still but it is running out of fresh material.

[smokin666]

Your premise is incorrect on a number of levels.

First off, spoiler: Hitsugaya's Ultimate attack did not put a scratch on Harribel as far as we know.

Second: Do you remember Iceringer and Demora? They were two low-level Arrancar who nonetheless managed to counter the powers of Chad and Ishida. I think that we can all agree that Chad and Ishida are certainly powerful, and were well-above the power level of those two arrancar, and yet they had to switch opponents to defeat them.

Here's my point: the powers needed to defeat Grimmjow were vastly different than the power needed to defeat Nnoitra. Grimmjow was very very very fast and attacked with a variety of techniques (and no, I do not think that Zommari was the fastest Espada; as far as I am concerned, he was full of crap).

Nnoitra, on the other hand, had two defining attributes: a exceedingly strong Hierro and an overwhelming melee offense. Enter Kenpachi, who also specializes in an overwhelming melee offense, and who happens to be the only Shinigami to have ever displayed anything resembling Hierro.

Zaraki's knowledge of how to sharpen his sword, combined with his offense, made him the perfect opponent for Nnoitra. Can you imagine if Kenpachi had went against Grimmjow? Grimmjow would have theoretically torn him to shreds from a distance. Kenpachi is a specialist; his fight with Nnoitra only proves this.

Third, we don't know how Ichigo would have done against Nnoitra because he had just had the stuffing taken out of him by Grimmjow.


Fourth, Ichigo's powers are not representative of his potential. His Bankai is relatively new; he still doesn't know how to use his powers. Remember Ichigo's fight with Byakuya? At first, Ichigo was really really fast, but as time went on, he got slower. Then, when the Hollow took over, Ichigo's Bankai was shown to be unbelievably formidable, capable of rapidly delivering insanely powerful attacks from multiple directions which are nigh-impossible to counter.

Basically, he's still new at his powers, both as a Shinigami and as a Vizard.

I will admit that this is a bit of a cop-out on the writer's part. After all, why have a quick fight when you can draw it out over 10 issues?

If you have issue with the pace, then I would suggest stop reading for a little while. Then, after a few months, catch up. In the meantime, check out other franchises.

*Phew*

Ahh, styles make fights, you're right. Just like in real life. Just because I pawn UraharaHitsugaya424 after class in a fight while his girlfriend holds my jacket. Then the next day OrangeHonda sucker punches me like a little punk with a brick and knocks me out. Doesn't mean because he beat me he can beat Urahara. UraharaHitsugaya could have some super brick sucker punch counter move.

Different fighting styles lend to different outcomes when you mix the opponenents. Just because you beat a guy doesn't mean you can beat everyone he fought against and beat himself.

Pay attention to the fights, I've said this before, they were a little rigged. Most all the good guys were fighting someone custom made to lose to them. The hollow with 100 eyes that control things meets the shinhigami with a million blades. The super genius got a scientific counter to everything hollow meets the super genius got a scientific counter to everything +1 shinhigami. The super fast blinding speed hollow meets the super fast blinding speed substitute shinhigami. The espada whose touch makes everything die meets the shinhigami who touches something twice and it dies. Top ranked lazy espada meets top ranked lazy shinhigami. The hollow who lives to fight and loves the thrill of battle meets the shinhigami who lives to fight and loves battle ETC ETC ETC

see a pattern here

EDIT* I wouldn't be suprised if prior to his battle with Rukia, Aaroniara liked sleeping in Grimmjows bedroom closet drawing bad cartoons.

[bleachlover20053]

just to all the ken haters here

I think Kenpachi's strongest attribute isn't his freakishly strong strength, overwhelming reiatsu or his sword skills but the fact that he can keep his calm during a fight as he enjoys it. he can carefully analyze the situation as we can see in tousen and nnoirtra fights that when he believes that he is in trouble, he turns serious and adapt to the situation. certainly as a captain, second only to hitsugaya, he has a lot of potential to become stronger than anybody. if he can activate his bankai (which i doubt he will use even if he learns b/c it will end fights too fast) plus his ability to adapt to different styles of battle, i think ken can become stronger than good 99.9% of the chars in bleach

[gerb]

BTW hi, I'm new, I'm not all the way up with the manga so don't be too harsh if I say something dumb plz :D -- thought I'd ask something though.

I get the feeling other ppl have trouble untageling the power hierarchy of bleach, I know I do. So ok,

Hitsugaya's Banki at least marginally keeps up with Harribel(2)
Kenpachi without eyepatch obviously was more than enough for Nnoitra(5)
Ichigo's mask was required for Grimmjow(6) ??

So Visard masks are about = with non Visard Banki
I thought Visard mask was a step up from Banki :confused:

Visard-Mask-Ichigo is now about = with Kenpachi-Without-Eyepatch if you go by the espada fights.

So anyway did his Banki get weaker, or did the other captain's get stronger? Either way, Ichigo's Banki by comparison has to be the weakest now, it can't begin to touch an upper espada -- his mask seems to barely keep up.

And Remember Ichigo vs Kenpachi way back when? No way Ichigo's shiaki was = to Nnoitra's resurrection form ! You can't even point out how Kenpachi got stronger durring the espada fight -- this gap is enormous.

Which reminds me, wth was with Ulquiorra's power, Visard mask with all Ichigo's resolution (Orihime was right there) was like nothing -- like nothing! I see in the VL debate it gets even more confusing.

Need to have Aizen walk in, call WW a VL, and have him fight Gin to the death for an upcomming betrayal :p so we can see wth.

The most powerfull villians in the show are complete unknowns in terms of strength and the heros arn't keeping very structured power tiers. Meanwhile the plot is kind of stalling.

Anyway help me out here, these sort of thoughts keep me from really getting into it >.< Maybe there's more backstory comming that will explain?

one word: plotkai (25 character limit)

[Zarakiii]

It is most definately an upgrade. Especially for Ichigo. Now, Ichigo is fucking awesome but I get the feeling he's not as powerful in bankai as some people so his mask makes up for it. Or he just doesn't know how to control the full extent of his power in it.

[Torisutan-san]

I think Bankai is more reasonable a plot device than the Vizard mask, considering the fact that so far the Vizard mask has only appeared AFTER bankai, yet I see no reason why it cannot be activated prior to bankai, and I've never seen Ichigo try that.

[slagoon]

what's amazing is that the other vizards can hollowfy without even going into shikai form.. maybe that puts the level of ichigo's control of his hollow powers..

[Bigace360]

No, ichigo tries and sees if he can beat them in his shikai, then bankai. If that doesn't work then he throws on his mask. The only reason the vizards use ther mask first is because they prefere their hollow instead of their shimigami powers, other then kensei who instead uses his orginial powers like ichigo first.

[il capitano]

It is an upgrade, but it doesn't mean that all Vizards are more powerful than Shinigami's who only have Bankai, as Yamamoto is more powerful than all of the Vizards.


Correct.

Both Love and Rose were bested by Stark, whereas Shunsui was much more powerful than he was. Shunsui is more powerful than both Love and Rose. I think the vizard masks give the vizards a certain increase in power, but not that huge of a boost above that of bankai captain level opponents.

You also have to take into effect that the vizards acquired their powers with an embryo hygoukyou that wasn't even fully or close to 50% developed, so they won't get that much of a boost in power by using the mask, just a small marginal boost in power.

Ichigo is a different case, he gets a much greater boost in power by using his mask. He was not hygokugufied but rather acquired it through a natural process.