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Fenris Amon
02-19-2006, 08:33 PM
When looked at a purely secular point of view, both of these could be seen as direct opposites. Where religion takes a look at what we don't know and tries to make it something we do, and Science makes it something we try to know. But have you ever though of something along these lines, that it is a synergystic type of relationship?

Think of it this way when reading some kind of textbook. How much of what you read has been somehow influenced by Religion? When we think of scientists today, we think of Athiests and people who say god is not a real being. I'm not referring to Angels and Demons By Dan Brown (Excellent book), but the pure history of scientists.

Hundreds of years ago, when you see a scientist, you see a relgious man who just wants to understand, he didn't dissuade god, nor did he say that he wasn't real. He merely wanted to understand god's world, or at least in how they put it. (Notice how i'm using god with a lowercase? I'm referring to all religions, not just Christianity) Even further back, it was actaully the CHRUCH itself which supported the aspects of science, and which religion was it that held onto the studies of the Greeks and Romans? The Middle-eastern nations under Islam. Even before that, the Greek philosphers, they firmly belived in their religion yet still yearned for understanding.

In Modern day society, we still have this type of thing happening, but on a different basis. When looked at, you see just people yearning for what they don't understand as of yet. 'What is the meaning of life?' 'why are we here?'. Such all questions in which people have searched for thousands upon thousands of years, yet we don't have the FAINTEST clue of their answer (besides 42, which is the answer for the ultimate question...whatever that may be). People are honestly scared of what they don't understand, in that they turn to religion for understanding. To the Catholics, a reason to live is becasue God has a motive for us all. Whereas in other religions the meaning to life is to place nature back in balance.

Everyone is scared of what they don't understand or whatever seems too abstract to be real. Let me us evolution as my argument. Evolution, takes millions upon millions of years to happen. Yet we still have single celled organisms. Can something as comples as the human body be so simple?

(Long anatomy lesson coming up....NOW! EVERYONE DUCK!)

Every LIVING cell in the human body is no further then two cells away from a capilary, which are so microscopicly thing that INDIVIDUAL O2 cells diffuse into the other cells. Each one of those blood cells then makes its way back to the heard where it DROPS OFF somehow the unused CO2 cells it doesn't need. In the heart, it never stops beating to keep the blood circulation going, if it stopped, everything would die because everyone everything needs energy. Beyond that, you have your indivudual muscles and organs, somehow these formed over millions of years to SUCH SPICIFIC parts that without ONE of them, we might die. The stomach releases digestive enzynes that just KNOW what they are supposed to do, the instentines just KNOW to digest food. And all this is controlled by something only the size of both your fists. The brain, yet we barely use any of it! How is that possible?! How do those synapses of electricy turn into signals for things to work? It's utterly impossibly complex. Yet at the same time, the human blood is SO close to being seawater, it's a wonder why we don't live in the sea.

Science dictates that this formed over billions of years, each of us evolving from a simple multicell oranism somewhat like a jellyfish. At the beginning, sea water LITTERIALLY was our blood. We we like a bag, no more then two cells big thick at the walls, so that every cell could get some sea water. Then overtime, the innermost cell created 'capilaries' which allowed for the bag to close. Over many years, this became our animals.

Yet look at humans and animals. Better yet, look at a monkey. They state that we only have a 7% difference in our DNA then a Monkey. Yet humans supposedly have something Monkys don't. A soul. When you look into the eyes of a Monkey, you can only sense drastic emotions (Sadness, happiness, etc). But when you look into the eyes of a human, you can sense a lot more. (If your experienced at this, you can 'read' a person's mind.) Like, there's more to that human then a monkey.

In conclusion, Science and Religon can be looked at as two different entities, but it is impossible at looking at one without referring to the other and how they were influenced by it. In a modern society where we live, Religion is often overlooked as something taboo almost. People don't goto church becasue it's 'uncool' and not 'in'. As some would say, but in all reality, we owe religions a huge debt of gratitude for giving us REASON to want to know. Science answers. Religion Asks.

-Fenris Amon. Now with Carpal Tunnel level 4. LEVEL UP!

PS: All your base are belong to us. Make your day gentlemen.

Centro
02-19-2006, 09:45 PM
In conclusion, Science and Religon can be looked at as two different entities, but it is impossible at looking at one without referring to the other and how they were influenced by it. In a modern society where we live, Religion is often overlooked as something taboo almost. People don't goto church becasue it's 'uncool' and not 'in'. As some would say, but in all reality, we owe religions a huge debt of gratitude for giving us REASON to want to know. Science answers. Religion Asks.

-Fenris Amon. Now with Carpal Tunnel level 4. LEVEL UP!

PS: All your base are belong to us. Make your day gentlemen.

I liked your post overall. Science and religion are sort of yin and yan. Religion incorporates some science and science encorporates some religion (or philosophy I guess is the better term) especially in the fields of philosophy of mind, perception, science.

But I've picked out your last paragraph here to comment on. I think in the past scientists were necessitated to be religious because of the huge influence of the church on society. But that all changed with Darwin's theory of evolution. This theory challenged the creation doctrine of the church and allowed scientists to distance themselves.

These days people can live their lives looking at the world in a purely scientific way because they have a "scientific" theory that they believe explains where they came from. They no longer seem to need religion to answer the question "where did we come from?". The "big" questions that are left for someone who looks at life scientifically are now not all that different from someone who looks at life religiously. (Like "why are we here?" and "why are we the way we are?" type questions). These questions can be addressed scientifically now with the new evolutionary fields like evolutionary psychology.

There's a debate thread somewhere down below of "evolution vs intelligent design". There are some good arguements in there that may be relevant but I wouldn't like to bring that debate into this thread.

Fenris Amon
02-19-2006, 10:06 PM
I see what you mean, but in part, Science seeks to 'uplift' those who are ignorant. Meaning those who solely use religion as their argument against others. In a sense, Science wouldn't exist as it would today if it wasn't for the Church. More or less, because the more 'myths' (Myths being stories about creation and such) that Religions have, the more Science seeks to disprove it.

Questions nowadays have seemingly drifted apart from their original meanings and sources. While yes, we are a more secular society, and science is now much stronger then religion in a whole.

I actually agree with you on your statements, Centro. So I can't really agrue against you in what you said.

PS: This was mainly just to get my thoughts in order, the fora I normally did this on was closed.

aznxenocide
02-19-2006, 10:16 PM
wow

that was a beast of a post. very well written too.

so i just want to get this straight. what you're asserting here is that religion is the ultimate cause of science?? *lol don't take it the wrong way...i'm just trying to make sure that's what I was supposed to have gotten from this. :p* i can understand how you might believe that...i even agree with you. What i'm interested in finding out though, is why you think science became "science" and religion, "religion." And where does philosophy fit into this?? Like Freud, Epicurus, Pythagoras, Plato? Are they considered science, because they sought to answer why they were the way they were?? or are they your "science/religious person" hybrid??

just curious. :D nice post!

Name is Yet to be Found
02-20-2006, 01:35 AM
I see Religion and Science as two sides of the same coin. Both of them are means used to explain existence and everything around us. It is all up to the individual to decide which to believe, or believe both.

One thing I do agree with is that people do have a negative perception of Religion, as if it's the lone cause of all the chaos in this world. I hear people's extremely biased rationale as to why they would choose to be atheist. For example, "Religion has always screwed the Science guys over." Blah blah. While it is true Religion is responsible for many atrocities, we have to remember Science has done its share of misdeeds as well. How many times have we heard preposterous actions being done in the name of Science? Does that not sound exactly like the reasoning used by the Religious followers: in the name of Religion?

For Religion, we hear of the disorder in the Middle East, or any of the early scientists being sentenced to death or life imprisonment for their discoveries (Galileo comes to mind), and so on.

For Science, we have so many ethical issues. Scientists enter a village to experiment the effects of a disease on people. Laboratory X, in Russia, experiments with poison to which political prisoners are used to test the potency of their latest creation.

The list goes on for Science just as the list goes on for Religion. They both have their positive and negative traits.

I think religion became "Religion" and science "Science" when science no longer agreed with what religion proposed, such as the age of the Earth, or how humans came to be, etcetera.

The two sides of a coin always face the complete opposite direction of each other but utimately are connected by the same entity, the coin itself. Science and religion take different paths, use different explanations to ultimately seek the same thing. They are connected by this entity, which is their purpose and that is to seek Truth.

[/rant]

uranai
02-20-2006, 02:00 AM
kinda reminds me the first anatomist who wanted not to understand the body to learn how to cure and perform cirgury, but to understand "god's creation" so it can be properly admired....

And like those experiments to "measure the weight of the soul", or to locate where the soul is inside the brain, and all that stuff.

Leo Seta
02-20-2006, 10:44 AM
Religion and science are exactly the same, they both aim to provide us with answers, just by taking different paths.

I am kinda sick of people saying how science just disproves religion. It's the exact opposite, if anything, science proves the existence of god. There is order in the universe, thus there must be an "orderer". Everything has a cause, thus there must be an uncaused-cause. Of course you could just argue that the universe just "is" and there is nothing beyond it, but thats so... unfulfliling.

As for evolution, meh. It has it's points but there's too many missing links in the evolutionary chain that have yet to be found and the functions of, well, everything in the universe is too precise to be just chance... of course it's a stupid idea to assume that you can make the logical jump between there being a watch & a watch-maker and there being an eye & a god but...

yeah... gotta love philosophy, you just run around in circles forever.

Good thread though, and yeah, religion and science are one and the same really. Shame that everyone blames the tool instead of it's weilder... neither religion or science are to blame for the wrongs of the world... it's man.

Fenris Amon
02-20-2006, 04:53 PM
Precisely! That's the exact point i've been trying to get! Circles = OWNAGE. Not really, haha. Seriously, really; It's impossible to truely 'get rid' of Religion in all respects. The point i'm trying to get across really is that Science and Religion are not opposites, just two ways of approaching questions. Religion isn't bad, it's just how people view it. While i'm not overly religious myself, I'll still defend it because it's something worth defending. That sounded corny...Anyways, thanks for the great replies, I expected nothing less.

*Insert smiley face here*