pro-life,pro-choice

[Ninjacowboy]

hmm i shall have to say im pro choice,
women have an optaion. and not to be eveil or anything but we are over popluatied a tad bit.
some will say"buts it's a life" yea? well we cna't stop that, but what if the baby with a screwd life. i mean lik ein the slums hateing every day he was born. because his mom choulden't care for him

but now. theres also adoption. thats a good one.
but woen need a choice. they have as much as rights as we (men) do.

:P

[lifegrd31]

I am pro-death. I hate to say it but no matter how you look at it in the end things aren't gonna change. Abortion isn't gonna be abolished so we mine as well get used to seeing dead babies, and we might as well get used to seeing dead abortion doctors. That is why I am pro-death......

[LastVampiel]

Hmmm...

My belief is'n't in the poll options. I believe in situational abortion. I mean, I do'n't like the idea of killing babies, but there are certain, uncontrollable circumstances that warrant it, you know?

And as evil as this will sound, we need a new stock for stem cell research.

[ramenkage]

hmm pro-death, that sounds good im for it
except its the parents i want dead. People that are stupid
and irresponisible enough to play around with life shouldnt be allowed to live.
Given of course that there are situations where it is unavoidable, but thats not
a big number.

[Tifdevil666]

hmm pro-death, that sounds good im for it
except its the parents i want dead. People that are stupid
and irresponisible enough to play around with life shouldnt be allowed to live.
Given of course that there are situations where it is unavoidable, but thats not
a big number.
you have no right to call them stupid and irresponsible. this is coming from the one who was so obsessed with admins on NT o_O only because they were admins...

i'm prochoice. women should be able to chose. men usually dont understand because if they're with a girl.. and she gets pregant they can just leave her.. and thats it... and then the women is stuck with the baby (yeah that does happen alot) =/

[Babbo]

tiff is trying to start something isn't she????

Babbo thinks they're st00pid, cause if they didn't want to get pregnant in the first place they shouldn't have had sex.....it's their fault and they should live with the consequences.....

[Tifdevil666]

tiff is trying to start something isn't she????
how am i trying to start something? everyone else can say what they want. but i cant?

Babbo thinks they're st00pid, cause if they didn't want to get pregnant in the first place they shouldn't have had sex.....it's their fault and they should live with the consequences.....
still.a child shouldnt be considered a "consequence" as i said. it doesnt affect you.. you can go have sex with a girl, dump her the next day, her end up being pregnant. and people will be like "its your fault, have fun the next 9 months :)" and it wouldnt matter...
and wahat if a girl is raped..O_o; and ends up getting pregnant....
people say "oh there could be special circumstances for that" but no there wouldnt. cops are stupid.. they dont even always believe the girls :s

[Babbo]

how am i trying to start something? everyone else can say what they want. but i cant?


Yup:D
(you don't have to get defensive, it's just no ones posted here in a whie, Babbo found it amusing that this was the thread you decided to zombify)

still.a child shouldnt be considered a "consequence" as i said. it doesnt affect you.. you can go have sex with a girl, dump her the next day, her end up being pregnant. and people will be like "its your fault, have fun the next 9 months :)" and it wouldnt matter...


no it's both their fault......


and wahat if a girl is raped..O_o; and ends up getting pregnant....
people say "oh there could be special circumstances for that" but no there wouldnt. cops are stupid.. they dont even always believe the girls :s
this might sound a bit harsh, but the girl did get herself in a place/situation where she was raped....it's kinda cruel say "Oh, it wasn't my fault that I got pregnant, that means that i can kill the baby"......

You can't really place the blame anywhere except with the rapest, Cops often don't believe rape victims cause there is often very little evidence, especially because rape victims often are to distraught to take care to gather it.....

[Tifdevil666]

well.. i havent been on this ofurm in a while.. and i just noticed this thread T_T


this might sound a bit harsh, but the girl did get herself in a place/situation where she was raped....it's kinda cruel say "Oh, it wasn't my fault that I got pregnant, that means that i can kill the baby"......
dude. its not a girls fault if she is like walking down the street and gets kidnapped and raped.. and she shouldnt have to go and have the baby of someone who did that to her

You can't really place the blame anywhere except with the rapest, Cops often don't believe rape victims cause there is often very little evidence, especially because rape victims often are to distraught to take care to gather it.....
yea i know cops dont care
a girl at my skool i know named Kelsey got raped in 8th grade. and the cops wouldnt believe her. they even talked to the guy and they wer elike "did you rape her..?"" and he was like "maybe" but they didnt care :s

[Babbo]

sure, you can think like that, but does that really mean you have to kill the baby????

m0000000000000

this is getting repitious, where someone else?????
it's not like there's a person who doesn't have an opinion on this topic is there????

[Tifdevil666]

yeah. it does mean you should be able to kill it...
like im not for when they go and kill the actual baby.. like 6 months into it or watever. and they have to suck it out... thats just wrong..
but like a week or 2 afterwards its not fullly living :s
and its not like people would go and over-do-it and go crazy with having abortions. people arent always doing them now.. so it wouldnt change

[Babbo]

*has heard thisbefore*

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Post People!!!!! Post!!!!!

yeah,but people are doing it, and that's bad enough that it should stop....

[LastVampiel]

I'll save you Babbo!

Lots of people want to adopt infants. Have the baby, put it up for adoption, where it can be taken into a home where it will be loved and nourished, et cetera. If something bad happens, why not pull some good out of it, right?

[Babbo]

Exactly!!!! if they get pregnant, either way they can put it up to adoption, which a far better alternative to killing a baby.....

[Tifdevil666]

I'll save you Babbo!

Lots of people want to adopt infants. Have the baby, put it up for adoption, where it can be taken into a home where it will be loved and nourished, et cetera. If something bad happens, why not pull some good out of it, right?
no, because then the woman has to carry around the baby for 9 months, just to give it away o.-

and i still wont consider it a baby when its only been like 2 weeks or watever =/

[Babbo]

You make adopting seem like it has almost the same pupose as abortion........

[Tifdevil666]

You make adopting seem like it has almost the same pupose as abortion........
..when your giving it up right as its born.... yeah.. cuz your still not going to be keeping the baby.. and you go through it for nothing

[Babbo]

except for the fact that you don't have to kill anyone.....

[Tifdevil666]

except for the fact that you don't have to kill anyone.....
.. did you know women sometimes die giving birth?... what if that women wanted an adoption.. and ended up dying.. because she coulnt have it..

[Babbo]

but most don't die.........in the US it's not very common....

[Kon]

Personally, I dont think it should be an option to get an abortion.

I read on a statistics page, I believe at like CNN or Yahoo, that only like .5% of abortions are from rapes. The majority are idiots that choose to have sex outside of marraige.

Have we as human beings lost all our morals? Since when has it been okay to move in with a boyfriend/girlfriend and be allowed so have unprotected sex as if you were married, before you are married? And for people who do it, they were able to make the choice to have sex, they should have to live with the, as they see it, just a minor detail. No wonder America is one of the fastest growing nations of STD cases.

(And for people basing their opinions on, 'Well I got raped, so I need an abortion' type deal. There is a pill that doctors can give rape victims up to 2 weeks after the pregnancy has occurred that will take care of it before it develops in the womb.)

BUT, that is just my opinion. I am one who most would consider quite conservitive when it comes to relationships, but that is just me. I know many wont/refuse to agree, and that's okay. ( But I will ban you from my forums!!!......j/k :P )

[Divine Truth]

Kon, I couldn't have said it better. For all those who cry about "the right to choose", you do have a choice: Do I have unprotected sex/sex before marriage?

In the case of rape, that is a tough situation. But here's my take on that. Did you have any choice in who your father is? No. This might sound idealistic, but why punish an innocent child for his/her father's wrong doing....just my opinion.

[Tifdevil666]

Personally, I dont think it should be an option to get an abortion.

I read on a statistics page, I believe at like CNN or Yahoo, that only like .5% of abortions are from rapes. The majority are idiots that choose to have sex outside of marraige.

Have we as human beings lost all our morals? Since when has it been okay to move in with a boyfriend/girlfriend and be allowed so have unprotected sex as if you were married, before you are married? And for people who do it, they were able to make the choice to have sex, they should have to live with the, as they see it, just a minor detail. No wonder America is one of the fastest growing nations of STD cases.

(And for people basing their opinions on, 'Well I got raped, so I need an abortion' type deal. There is a pill that doctors can give rape victims up to 2 weeks after the pregnancy has occurred that will take care of it before it develops in the womb.)

BUT, that is just my opinion. I am one who most would consider quite conservitive when it comes to relationships, but that is just me. I know many wont/refuse to agree, and that's okay. ( But I will ban you from my forums!!!......j/k :P )
yeah.. you make alot of good points too ;o
but its not always unprotected sex which causes people to get pregnant.. theres never a SURE way not to get pregnant..
and not all doctors will give pills to rape victims. because people do not always believe people who were raped....
and people who are married have abortions too..

[Babbo]

um....you don't need to prove you're raped to get a pill....just that you're pregnant, it's another form of abortion though.....

and those married people are just fools who think they're mature enough to have sex but aren't ready to have a baby (well in most cases at least)

[ramenkage]

back and in action,
but it looks like kon is owning this place...
basically, be responisble practice safe sex
people in general need to make less babies, too many out there already as is

[P4lladiumShifted]

(And for people basing their opinions on, 'Well I got raped, so I need an abortion' type deal. There is a pill that doctors can give rape victims up to 2 weeks after the pregnancy has occurred that will take care of it before it develops in the womb.) Dude, that's an abortion! Sure a doctor isn't deflating the skull and pulling it out, but it's still an abortion! That's why it's called "The Abortion Pill!"
********
Back to the topic.

I'm personally unable to choose a side in the abortion issue. On one hand the pro-lifers are Annoying idiots. But on the other hand, they're evil f**ks. And I guess all I can do is just admit that they're annoying evil idiot f**ks.

Seriously, however, I can't choose because no one has any way of telling whether or not a fetus is conscious or self-aware until they're out and able to talk. Sure you can theorize and speculate using EEGs and heart monitors, but EEGs don't measure Consciousness Waves!

[Enrich]

I think we should let the babies decide whether or not they can be stabbed in the face... Come on people. Let the babies live.

[D34th Ch1x0r]

I'm personally unable to choose a side in the abortion issue. On one hand the pro-lifers are Annoying idiots. But on the other hand, they're evil f**ks. And I guess all I can do is just admit that they're annoying evil idiot f**ks.
I, personally, am not for abortion in any sense. However, it is the m0ther's right to choose. Then again, it is a life that is ended before it's really begun (which isn't right) so, I guess I'm undecided as well *argues with self*. How do you find Pro-life people annoying or evil F**k's?? Most of my friends are pro life and they aren't like that at all (and I'm not just saying that because they're my friends). Evil, I would definitely say no too (I mean, come on, they're pro life) Annoying, yes I can agree with that in a sense cause some of my friends can have one tracked minds (and are ****ed stubborn too).

[Enrich]

Emothional pleas don't make much sense... Pro-choice people can be just as annoying. Lets get some hard facts people.

[P4lladiumShifted]

Ok how about the fact that 0% of Psycho Pro-Choice advocates are responsible for Clinic bombings.

How about the fact that a lot of the women going into abortion clincs and being harrassed by Pro-lifers aren't going in for abortions but are going in for health-related reasons.

Sure, they aren't actual facts, but I'm not a psychologist or anthropologist. For those kind of facts, you'll need to ask someone else.

Personally, I feel that they are evil annoying idiot f**ks because they're the only ones screaming "murder" and posting pictures of bloody fetuses on their signs.

[Enrich]

Thats a group of people... not the entire population of pro-lifers... ASSUMPTIONS!

[P4lladiumShifted]

Well, forgive me if they're the only ones that I know of!

Unfortunately, the media doesn't cover the sane Pro-lifers who stay at home and just don't like abortions. Maybe if they came out and made their presence known, I wouldn't talk like this.

So, i'll reserve on changing my views until I meet non-psycho pro-lifers other than yourself.

[Enrich]

You just bring up another issue... the media controls the masses...

Even if I was pro-life... I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[D34th Ch1x0r]

Thats a group of people... not the entire population of pro-lifers...
Well stated, thank you.
Besides, if those aren't actual facts, then how can you really hold up a debate?? Grant it, I don't have facts that prove you wrong either. However, I do know that the pro lifers I know would never blow up a building (and END numerous lives) just because there are people out there that disagree with them. So, just as Enrich pointed out, it's not the entire population of pro-lifers that're like that. Now, I will agree with you that people posting pictures of fetus's and what not on poster boards and showing them to the public isn't exactly the best way to go about arguing their cause. If I saw someone on the side of a road like that I'd probably turn tail and walk in the other direction :p

[gogo]

this might sound a bit harsh, but the girl did get herself in a place/situation where she was raped....it's kinda cruel say "Oh, it wasn't my fault that I got pregnant, that means that i can kill the baby"......

You can't really place the blame anywhere except with the rapest, Cops often don't believe rape victims cause there is often very little evidence, especially because rape victims often are to distraught to take care to gather it.....

ok - so if a girl is making out with a guy, she doesn't want to go any farther but her does - so he rapes her even if she says no -- she's still partially at fault b/c she put herself in that situation? so she's partially to blame for getting raped? or if she had been drinking - does that change the situation? that's bullsh*t. if the guy feels like the girl is leading him on - if she says no or shows in any way she doesn't want it to go further - it should not go further b/c that's not a reason for rape.

and the abortion pill - a lot of moms won't even know they're pregnant until past 1 month - so how is that pill going to help them? and if you're ok with the pill - when do you consider the baby being a human, b/c you don't mind killing it at conception or within 2 weeks? so when? 2 months, 6 months, when you can see the tiny fingers? when it can survive on it's own without the mom? so just pick an arbitrary time?

but back on topic...ummm...i would never get an abortion and i'm always walking that middle line - but i'm for the mom having control over her own body. yes, people are stupid and make stupid mistakes and why make a fetus pay for it - but i'm not for the government telling a woman what she can and can't do with her body. another problem would be that it might give rise for the gov't to start interfering with other aspects of someone's bodily integrity. i think most moms regret or go through some depression after having an abortion, but at least it was their decision

[Soul Slayer]

It's not leading on anymore if she says NO for crying out loud...sometimes heat of the moment things get hot and heavy and when the mind suddenly clicks thats when you say no and the other person should respect that...although my ex didn't actually sleep with the guy...that's precisely what she got herself into...30 mins later she's like "OK TOO MUCH!"

And she pays the price of feeling used and crappy...its already bad enough for a girl to feel that way so for guys to feel shafted and resort to rape is despicable and disgusting and makes me as a guy want to snap their necks...

Back to abortion. I'm Roman Catholic BUT don't get me wrong...I believe in contraception and I believe in abortion or at least the choice. IN THE END...we pay for our own sins...we reap our own rewards and we are responsible for OURSELVES. Let people make the decision...that's a God given ability that we have...to make choices...and its up to us to make the right ones...

This is what I tell myself...tell my friends...tell my younger sister...and when we were together...my ex g/f:

Some things are best left not said and not done...

Some things we want most are best left unpursued...

But at the same time...some things should never be kept in no matter the consequences...

Some things should be done...no matter what the obstacles...

And some things...should be pursued at all costs.

It's up to us to know the difference...

[Ouchy]

Back to abortion. I'm Roman Catholic BUT don't get me wrong...I believe in contraception and I believe in abortion or at least the choice. IN THE END...we pay for our own sins...we reap our own rewards and we are responsible for OURSELVES. Let people make the decision...that's a God given ability that we have...to make choices...and its up to us to make the right ones...

That's like saying, give people the choice to rob pillage murder and rape. We're all going to be held accountable for them anyway, so just let them do as they may. Abortion is legalized baby killing and I will see it no other way. Let's not mince words of fetus and whatnot. Just google Silent Scream to see what I'm talking about.

[Kon]

To those who agree with abortion. (http://www.hisglory.us/images/National%20news/baby_samuel.jpeg) (Slightly graphic)

[PINOY]

I for one do not believe in killing helpless babies. if a ****** doesn't want to keep her child she should turn them over to an adoption agency so they can find a proper family for the child.

[Ouchy]

To those who agree with abortion. (http://www.hisglory.us/images/National%20news/baby_samuel.jpeg) (Slightly graphic)
Umm, I think you should change that to "Very graphic. May disturb."

[epicbard]

To those who agree with abortion. (http://www.hisglory.us/images/National%20news/baby_samuel.jpeg) (Slightly graphic)
ah! .... and i thoght that i was the one with the scary pics.....

[PINOY]

wow, VERY graphic pics. Didn't know ppl could do things to thier own blood.

[k_angel_iii]

it's not like there's a person who doesn't have an opinion on this topic is there????

Mmmmm. Life or Death.

Should the "quality of life" argument be used to say that if someone's life lacks quality (they're suffering, they will suffer, etc), then that person should be put to death. If there's food shortage, should the "excess" people be "relieved" of life to enable the remainder to have more enjoyment. The benefits such as conserving resources, saving us emotional attachment etc.

Or that every human put in a situation without power and completely at the mercy of another deserves to be protected by society. Potentially saving someone or preserving some beneficial gene, or to save ourselves the trouble/burden of giving a **** or bearing unnecessary costs. Why should we keep preserving someone who will probably not have a happy life.

What to do! What to do! I really don't think know what side to take. It's a hard question +__+ . This one is out of my domain. Since death is irreversible, I prefer to be on the side of caution. You can always kill later, but the killing itself cannot be undone.

[spy182]

i believe in pro choice because in all reality its the girls choice whether or not she wants the baby. Even if you don't want the baby people say well you can put it up fro adoption well that still means that the girl has to go through with giving birth and dealing with all of the pains of being pregnent but in the end will give the baby up. So basically she will go through all that pain to save the babies life which i guess is good but i know im sure that allot of people wouldn't want to deal with that when they could just get an abortion and not have to deal with it at all. I feel if the girl wants one she should go get one its her choice in the end.

[P4lladiumShifted]

Okay, now you've convinced this woman that abortions are wrong, but now she has 5 kids. But because she has 5 kids, she can't properly clothe them or feed them. Will your organization help her, feed these children? No! You're just sitting there taking your ****ing time!
Ronin Saryet: Point/Counterpoint
Point: Abortion's bad
Counterpoint: But killing doctors is good?
Just a couple quotes from an old Rant Radio show called What the Hell?!

[k_angel_iii]

Ronin Saryet: Point/Counterpoint
Point: Abortion's bad
Counterpoint: But killing doctors is good?

Lol

I think it's really twisted to think killing someone is a good, if you share a difference of opinions.

I've seen some of the manifestos of the folk who go around attacking doctors and stuff. You'd think that being pro-life would make them respect the life of the doctor some more.

[P4lladiumShifted]

If you're really pro-life, don't block clinics. Link arms... and block cemetaries. Let's see how f$cking committed you are to this premise.

"She can't come in!"
"She's 94, she got hit by a bus!"
"There's options."
"What the hell are we supposed to do? She's startin' ta stink, LET'S GO!"
EDIT: I've apparently got to type some more because apparently the above quote isn't more than 10 characters. So here I am.

Ummm, what's a good filler?

Ah:
The Wave-Harmonic Theory of Historical Perception states that history is an illusion based on the passage of time, and that time is an illusion based on the passage of history.

[Kikintae]

I used to be pro-life, but now I'm pro-choice.

It's nothing about whether woman can have the choice or not, but the thing is, if you can't have a kid and deal with it good, then don't bother. It's because of the rigid rules and many stankin conservatives condemning abortion that there's so many kids suffering from **** like stankin dad coming home drunk and beating up his wife and kids. That's just one example. There's many more cases that are just sick.

It's better to hurt the kid (abortion) when they're in the womb than to hurt them for life and then they'll carried that scar and hurt future kids. Having kids isn't like raising a farm. Quantity is NOT better than quality.

[felius]

Hmmm...

My belief is'n't in the poll options. I believe in situational abortion. I mean, I do'n't like the idea of killing babies, but there are certain, uncontrollable circumstances that warrant it, you know?

And as evil as this will sound, we need a new stock for stem cell research.
i agree. it depends on the situation...

[Daft Morgan]

To borrow from Maddox: "I'm anti-abortion, but pro-killing babies."

In all fairness, I support it.

[PINOY]

Why kill babies when you can just put them up for adoption? *No offense to you.*

[Chokore-to Purin]

my opinion is abortion should only be allowed if the baby will kill the ****** and itself, as for rape i can see abortion if the victum is under 18, becuase under 18 you are still in your parents care (in most cases). but all rape is evil.
For a normal healthy girl to go out, think she's mature enough to have unprotected sex and make that choice, she should have to live with the consequences, if she doesn't want the baby, adoption.
some people say its the womans body she can do what she want, but when that woman becomes pregnant it is no longer just her body, for the next nine months there will be another human being growing inside of her.

[Kikintae]

Why kill babies when you can just put them up for adoption? *No offense to you.*

Adoption isn't always the best choice. If the kid's lucky, they'll find a nice family and that's almost 5% out of 100%. Most of the time, it's some sickos and assholes out there. :)

[pajee]

It's technically not a "baby" until it's in the 40th week or something. Maybe even in the 30's... it's 11pm and I'm tired. Doctors WILL NOT let you have an abortion after 2 months or so.


I'm pro-choice. Still a virgin and I believe in all the no sex stuff. However, married couples still get abortions you know. People have tried to turn me pro-life, but experiencing how my family's history and the circumstances we had to go through, I'm glad there was that choice.

[k_angel_iii]

... I'm pro-choice. Still a virgin and I believe in all the no sex stuff. ...

:eek: ... I thought virgins were an endangered species.

But anyway, if 99.9% of the people had your kind of self control with respect to this and that ( ;) ), the issue of pro-choise VS pro-life wouldn't exist. Human beings complicate things through their own actions. Forgive me, but people like you who simply exercise some control and thinking makes it obvious how simply things should be if more people acted responsibly, with more self control, and more thinking.

*takes hats of* :D

[pajee]

:eek: ... I thought virgins were an endangered species.


I know... I'm a rare breed. Almost 20 (in December) and still a virgin. Some say it's sad. I say, "Hey! No STDs and no kids! Nothing to tie me down! (except school...)" :D


I was reading the New York Times yesterday and there was an article about how kids under 10 can find so many excuses to seperate the blame on them. He can have his hand in the cookie jar and still say he didn't do it. I think it's because of conditioning like that at such a young age that people don't take blame for what they do.

When a girl goes out, has protected sex, but this time something happened and she gets pregnant, who does she blame? She blames the guy, the makers of the condom, ect. Anyone but herself. The guy won't take blame for it either. He'll most likely bring up her history saying, "She sleeps around so much. It can't be my kid. I want a DNA test." ect. ect. ect.

Plus, as stated before, there are so many children in this world who are starving, homeless, and sick because their parents have abandoned them (or dead), they ran away from a bad home, their parents simply don't have enough money. Why create a child if you do not intend to keep it? Why create another child just to put it through suffering. Go adopt and save one of these kids from the perils of their current life and do something that they'll appreciate and love you for. You don't have to be their birth parent to get love. If you change their life for the better, they will love you forever. I would love to adopt children from India, Africa, Russia, ect. once I get a good job and enough money to do so. Because of this, why suffer the pain of birth when you can ease someone else's pain?

[esdur]

I feel that while some people may disagree on whether from conception a fetus is considered a human/baby, ultimately, I do not want any authority telling me what I can or cannot do with my body. This is why I am a firm believer in pro-choice. There is no difference for me whether or not the pregnancy occurred from rape or voluntary sexual intercourse.
Is sexual intercourse such a crime that a female who participates in it and becomes pregnant against her wishes should be punished and be forced to keep her pregnancy?
Is a rape victim not tortured enough that she should, in addition to the mental trauma of being raped, carry to full term the seed of the man who raped her?
My answer to both is no. Forcing a female to carry a child to full term, a woman or child who is neither ready, nor willing to conceive is in my definition a cruel and unusual punishment.
In my eyes and better judgment, the arguments; "She got what's coming to her", or "abortion is murder", is not enough to sway me that a woman's right to choose should be taken away from her. I don't believe that having sex is punishable by pregnancy, and I do believe that many people do not consider fetuses in the early part of conception a life that can be murdered.
And for those like Bush who tell us that abortion is murder and should not be legal unless the female has been raped; well let me pose this question. Is the fetus of a raped female any less important then that of female who participated in voluntary sexual intercourse? Do the sins of the father move down to that of the 'child'? Don't tell me that abortion is murder in some cases and justify it in others. I'm not a fool and I will not stand to have my right as a woman, and citizen, come under question. A decision that relates to me personally should be made by this person.
If I have the conscious to vote and chose who leads this country of ours, then I say I have the right to live my life as I see fit so long as I do no harm to others. And so long as the question of whether or not a fetus is a person, is one that does not see a unanimous answer by all, then I say and believe, it is my right to have an abortion and this right cannot and should not be taken away by any authority.

[Gwenhwyfar]

To esdur, I just wanted to tell you that your argument is probably the best I have ever heard on this subject. Although I have/had a different opinion then yours, you bring up some very good points that I didn't really look at. It is one thing to say yes I'm for pro-life or no I'm against it and another to actually explain why you have those opinons. A very good argument and it may have even changed my own opinion a little bit on the whole subject, which is insane because I have always been against abortion. But now I'm thinking that maybe it is more my religious beliefs telling my what is right and what is wrong and not what I think things should be like. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

[DEATHGOD1]

pro-life adoption is always an alternative

[esdur]

I’m not saying adoption isn’t a choice. But that is the woman’s burden to decide, not the governments.

[k_angel_iii]

Well, pro-choice seems to be dominating, so let me have some fun.

Many revolutions have taken place with human thinking. There was a time when people thought some other races were "savages" that weren't really human beings. However, as human knowledge has expanded, we have come to realize that there might be different human races, but they are all humans. Physically and mentally disabled were also at some point considered not human. Slowly, the human rights advocates extended rights to those who were previously not considered human (or uncivilized).

The issue of the fetus is similar. This mass of cells which cannot speak nor protest... this mass of cells that cannot communicate to us anything... all it does is drain nutrients from the pregnant parent. There were times when deformed children were abandoned in the forest (or snuffed at birth), and in some cultures if a child didn't talk and respond to it's name it wasn't considere human.

As humans have grown in knownledge (science, religion and generally the availability of information), many notions and ideas with respect to other humans have changed.

Recently science has given has means to ask whether or not a fetus is human. As more information has become available there are even laws to protect against cruelty to animals.

It has become obvious that perhaps we really do not know when a fetus becomes a human. When does a fetus become a human? If it is a human, should it not be afforded the some amount of reasonable protection and rights in some cases (just as we have done for those who were previously not considered human)? Is it because fetuses cannot communicate to us? Weren't we all once fetuses? Even if we can't remember would anyone have surrendered their lives to the wish or a parent not to carry them anymore?

I won't say pro-choice, or pro-life. I see this issue as a consequence of a lack of self control mostly (just like most problems in society).

In order to avoid having to even question whether we are killing humans or not, shouldn't we strive to avoid creating fetuses (using protection or abstainance or whatever) and thereby avoid having to even deal with this. It's like the person who goes out driving during the full moon without headlights and decides that if the thing (s)he he is about to run over doesn't scream and say "don't hit me I'm a human being" then it's okay to run it over. Why put yourself in such a situation? That's just me though.

Anyway, whatever the logical conclusion or consequences of the choices people are making, I suppose I don't really mind. I'm curious to see how things turn out anyway things go.

Oh... as for the rapists and such... I do think they should be clipped and pruned :D .

[SilverSaru]

here is how i see it. If having the baby endangers the ******s life then they should be allowed. if not then they shouldnt

[kokoninja]

hmm.
I am pro choice for a simple reason:

I feel that if child is not wanted, then it should not be brought into this world. For whatever reason, rape, a mistake, stupidity on the parent's end. Is having a child suffer and live a life of neglect and misery any more fair than ending it before it's begun?

Which is more inhumane, when you think about it?

It's a tough call, and that's the choice of those involved. I don't think the government or relegious leaders, or whatever, have anyright to tell a woman what to do with her body.

that's my opinion.

[jjsofia]

Adding on to pro-choice arguments, I really believe people take adoption way too lightly. Adoption, in my opinion, is one of the worst things a woman can go through. It isn't as if adoption is easy. Although I am very pro-choice, I really don't think I'd ever get an abortion myself, but I would rather get five abortions that give up one child for adoption.

After carrying a child to full term and giving birth, and just being of your flesh and blood, I would find it really hard to give up something so precious. If I knew I could not take care of the child and I pretty much had no other choice but adoption, I think it would totally mess me up and I'd feel like a part of me was missing. And in turn, I think it also has a high potential of causing many mental problems for the child as well.

In other words, in my opinion, if a woman/girl is forced to give birth to a child when she's not ready, mentally, it can totally screw up the lives of both ****** and child.

[mikaeel]

I'm pro-choice because I don't believe it is my right no matter what to decide for someone I don't know what to do with their life, even if I don't agree with it. I don't believe I would ever have an abortion even if my child had a defect or anything but I don't think I have a right to tell others to do the same. Plus it depends on the circumstances.

Also to everyone who says to carry a child and then put it up for adoption. Well I'm sure you're forgetting the contractions, my ****** had to go through them four times at about 15 hours each. Also she had to go to the hospital about three/four times due to pain and not being able to move, for the last one she had a ceserean which caused her to be unable to do anything for six weeks. She didn't mind those things one bit because she did them for us but I'm sure someone who will not see a child past their birth probably would.

Also I believe that if it is possible for the ****** to die then they should have an abortion, why? Well you're leaving the child all alone without a ****** and you never know they might feel guilty about what occured, they might get depressed and how would the ****** feel wherever they are in the afterlife knowing there was even the slightest chance that this could happen? I couldn't, never. Plus my mummy said it was okay, because god said you but be healthy and such...erm I'm not so good at the god/religion thing...my mummy's better, oh but god is forgiving.

Some things I read annoyed me, saying that women who got pregnant were stupid but not everyone had unprotected sex, sometimes condoms split and pills don't work and such, its a two sided thing, but its the ****** who suffers. Its the ****** who carries the burden for nine months.

Though I can say that I'm sure those that do want children but can't have them would get pretty pissed off at people getting abortions.

Just a question apart from time and the age of the foetus, if there any restrictions or regulations on abortions or can you have one if you're in the time span, with great ease and other such irritating things?

I wouldn't have an abortion unless I would die, even if my child would be ill, it would be okay because they are my child and I would carry the burden too. Plus they would smile and be silly like my youngest brother Sami ^_^~ He is so cute I cannot imagine my world without him.

[therani]

In a civilized culture, murder should never be considered a rational solution to a problem. Not only is abortion murder, it's assassination. You're paying somebody to kill somebody. And it's the worst sort of assassination. You're paying somebody to kill a completely innocent person, because they're an Inconvenience. How would you like to be killed for simply being inconvenient?

Abortion is like telling somebody, "Nothing personal, but you're a waste of time, an unnecessary expense, an extra mouth to feed, a crimp in my style. Your very existence is a bother. You'll just have to die. Yeah, there are other solutions, but they're all too inconvenient for me. I'm just going to pay somebody to kill you. Maybe you'll be poisoned, maybe you'll be sliced to bits, maybe you'll have your brain sucked out through a tube. It's all good. Long as you're dead, it's fine with me."

I have trouble believing a culture that made something like this legal is considered civilized.

[P4lladiumShifted]

In a civilized culture, murder should never be considered a rational solution to a problem. Not only is abortion murder, it's assassination. You're paying somebody to kill somebody. And it's the worst sort of assassination. You're paying somebody to kill a completely innocent person, because they're an Inconvenience. How would you like to be killed for simply being inconvenient?
Wow, nice sweeping generalization there...

Abortion is like telling somebody, "Nothing personal, but you're a waste of time, an unnecessary expense, an extra mouth to feed, a crimp in my style. Your very existence is a bother. You'll just have to die. Yeah, there are other solutions, but they're all too inconvenient for me. I'm just going to pay somebody to kill you. Maybe you'll be poisoned, maybe you'll be sliced to bits, maybe you'll have your brain sucked out through a tube. It's all good. Long as you're dead, it's fine with me."
See, this is the thing. How can you use the word 'kill' there? Do you know exactly when life "begins?"

How can you? When not even todays religious, philosophical, and medical experts can't come to any kind of conclusion.

There's a kind of melancholic freedom that comes with the realization that nothing on this planet has a "Right to Life." What about the woman who has a miscarriage? I don't see you beating down her door for what is, for all in tense and purposes, nature's abortion. I don't see you carrying signs that say "God kills babies."

A ridiculous argument, yes. But no more or less than your own.

I have trouble believing a culture that made something like this legal is considered civilized.
By the true meaning of 'civilized' no Homo Sapien is. We eat things that are already dead, we kill people who disagree with us, we kill people who agree with us, we kill people that we've never even heard of, and we have dumb arguments over things that occur naturally.

To quote GTA: San Andreas, "With people like you around, it's no wonder we don't bother curing cancer."

[jewlreya]

Abortion should only be considered if:

1) You have really no $$$ to support it or anything
2) This is affecting you health and you will die with it
3) Unwanted pregnancy, you are underaged

Of course, i'm against abortion but cases of it are increasing. Although it's cruel to have abortion but sometimes things are just beyond your control. It's hard to carry a baby around if you are still too young for it. If you can accept people around pointing and gossiping at you then I can say you are really brave to stand up for yourself and the baby. Abortion is also a way out to solve problem for certain people.

I've got a neighbour who gave birth to her child at the age of 15, she got crazy and now not only the guy doesn't want her, the kid can't stay with her as well. She tried to kill her baby since she gave birth to it. It's just horrible. If only, she listened to her parents to go for abortion, now she should be able to just carry on with her life.

[♠ Saint ♠]

In a civilized culture, murder should never be considered a rational solution to a problem. Not only is abortion murder, it's assassination. You're paying somebody to kill somebody. And it's the worst sort of assassination. You're paying somebody to kill a completely innocent person, because they're an Inconvenience. How would you like to be killed for simply being inconvenient?

Abortion is like telling somebody, "Nothing personal, but you're a waste of time, an unnecessary expense, an extra mouth to feed, a crimp in my style. Your very existence is a bother. You'll just have to die. Yeah, there are other solutions, but they're all too inconvenient for me. I'm just going to pay somebody to kill you. Maybe you'll be poisoned, maybe you'll be sliced to bits, maybe you'll have your brain sucked out through a tube. It's all good. Long as you're dead, it's fine with me."

I have trouble believing a culture that made something like this legal is considered civilized.

... assassination? Perhaps in the loosest sense of the word but assassination is basically someone being paid to kill another person. Like P4lladiumShifted said, so far, no one has been able to agree about when life begins, or when one is granted rights as a person.

My thoughts on this are that ****** and child are one entity until the umbilical cord is cut. Life begins when a heartbeat starts. A woman's reproductive rights should not be infringed upon. That's about it, really.

I won't even touch that second paragraph of yours. It's too narrow-minded to squeeze through.

And pray tell, what is your definition of civilized? I've come to understand that civilization is a bit of a facade for "moral", upstanding citizens. Also, care to come off your high horse and let us know what culture you come from so I can criticize it?

[shihouin]

I think it is impossible for abortion to be right all the time, or for it to be wrong all the time.
Abortion, if used for the sake of convenience such as the ****** doesn't wish to spend money they do have, on the baby, that is wrong, undeniably

However, if the ****** will die in childbirth, and the baby must be aborted to save the ******'s life is a valid reason for it.
What do we do about rape victims? They didn't want the baby and they were forced into a responsibility they never asked for. Bearing and raising the child of their rapist is a duty no one would want. So I think it is unfair to say that a rape victim will have to take care of the most tangible symbol of their pain.

[dar]

im pro-choice! id rather die than to have everything fixed up for me.. the freedom to choose whatever!

[therani]

Wow, nice sweeping generalization there...


See, this is the thing. How can you use the word 'kill' there? Do you know exactly when life "begins?"

How can you? When not even todays religious, philosophical, and medical experts can't come to any kind of conclusion.

There's a kind of melancholic freedom that comes with the realization that nothing on this planet has a "Right to Life." What about the woman who has a miscarriage? I don't see you beating down her door for what is, for all in tense and purposes, nature's abortion. I don't see you carrying signs that say "God kills babies."

A ridiculous argument, yes. But no more or less than your own.

By the true meaning of 'civilized' no Homo Sapien is. We eat things that are already dead, we kill people who disagree with us, we kill people who agree with us, we kill people that we've never even heard of, and we have dumb arguments over things that occur naturally.

To quote GTA: San Andreas, "With people like you around, it's no wonder we don't bother curing cancer."


I believe life starts at conception. Do you believe that unborn babies are heaps of dead flesh that magically come to life the second the cord is cut? Heaps of dead flesh that move, kick, have heart beats, detectable brain activity, and their own genetic code months before they're born? I believe they're as human as we are, simply in a different stage of development, and that they deserve to be treated like humans, in that it should be as illegal to kill them as it is to kill you or me.

This is nothing new, though. My country has always had difficulty figuring out who's a human being. For the longest time, they thought black people didn't count as people. They were wrong about that, too.

If we want to go through life without killing other people, and we're not sure at what point unborn babies turn into people, then we can either err on the side of life, and not kill any of them at all, and inconvenience somebody for most of a year, or we can err on the side of death, and risk killing someone who really Is a person. I'd prefer that we err on the side of life.

The difference between a miscarriage and an abortion is the difference between natural causes and homicide. In miscarriage and natural causes, biology failed. In abortion and in homicide, someone has gone out of their way to end a life.

P4lladiumShifted, please don't tell me crap about cancer. I've already had one biopsy, thank you. :(

And ♠ Saint ♠, I'm an American. I suspect we're civilized only to the extent that murdering *most* people is considered illegal. And it's illegal to take other people's stuff. We're civilized only in that we have laws and law enforcement and a judicial system set up to protect *most* people's civil rights to life, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. Whatever that means anymore. *sigh*

[P4lladiumShifted]

I believe life starts at conception. Do you believe that unborn babies are heaps of dead flesh that magically come to life the second the cord is cut? Heaps of dead flesh that move, kick, have heart beats, detectable brain activity, and their own genetic code months before they're born? I believe they're as human as we are, simply in a different stage of development, and that they deserve to be treated like humans, in that it should be as illegal to kill them as it is to kill you or me. Way to think that argument through. So, just because I don't believe that life begins at conception that automatically i believe that it only starts at birth?

What you believe really has no bearing on scientific theory or law. If you don't believe in abortions, don't have one. But stop with the moralistic "You're killing a human being" BS.

As far as the genetic code argument? Everyone has millions of abortions every day. Skin cells that contain our entire DNA chain can be used in cloning to create new babies.

This is nothing new, though. My country has always had difficulty figuring out who's a human being. For the longest time, they thought black people didn't count as people. They were wrong about that, too. Very true. Now they don't think that gay people count as people. We've come a long way.

If we want to go through life without killing other people, and we're not sure at what point unborn babies turn into people, then we can either err on the side of life, and not kill any of them at all, and inconvenience somebody for most of a year, or we can err on the side of death, and risk killing someone who really Is a person. I'd prefer that we err on the side of life. Sound argument, but at the same time it's not the fetus' body that is being debated here. For all scientific purposes, the fetus is really a parasitic organism. It gives nothing back to the parent (biologically) and it sucks nutrients from the ******'s food intake. It's always the person's choice whether they want to carry a parasite inside them.

Whether or not this parasite could grow into a person with wants and needs and feelings is moot as far as the medical field goes. Then we delve into the realm of philosophy and philosophical ideals aren't any legal basis at all.

I reiterate the simple fact that nothing in this world has a "right to life." That's why sea turtles and ****roaches have these huge amounts of offspring at any one time; so at least one of their spawn will survive predators, nature and chance to pass on their genetic legacy.

P4lladiumShifted, please don't tell me crap about cancer. I've already had one biopsy, thank you. :( And my mentor died of melanoma. I'm not gonna feel sorry or apologetic for you just because you've had a biopsy. I hope you live a long and healthy life, but at the same time I hope you snap out of this stupidity.

[therani]

I guess we're doing alright then, for a bunch of former parasites who have no right to live. But when did morals become a bad thing?

[♠ Saint ♠]

Nothing wrong at all with morals as long as you keep them to yourself and don't force them on other people, therani.

[BLEACH]

yea. that creates big problems

[therani]

Nothing wrong at all with morals as long as you keep them to yourself and don't force them on other people, therani.

I am so perplexed now by this thread. It was originally in a debate forum. And it's apparently okay for people to express their thoughts on abortion here, provided they aren't in any way religious or moral. What the crap is this thread for? So all the pro-choice people can sit around and agree with each other? Perhaps I'm just not qualified to post in this thread. My morality and religious beliefs are part of who I am. I don't think I can go anywhere without taking them with me. I'll take my morality and my religious beliefs and go play in the other threads now.

[jewlreya]

I think it is impossible for abortion to be right all the time, or for it to be wrong all the time.
Abortion, if used for the sake of convenience such as the ****** doesn't wish to spend money they do have, on the baby, that is wrong, undeniably

However, if the ****** will die in childbirth, and the baby must be aborted to save the ******'s life is a valid reason for it.
What do we do about rape victims? They didn't want the baby and they were forced into a responsibility they never asked for. Bearing and raising the child of their rapist is a duty no one would want. So I think it is unfair to say that a rape victim will have to take care of the most tangible symbol of their pain.

That's what I wanted to say.

therani, don't be offended. I know people has their own religious belief. But this is a debate topic so there is no right and wrong. And maybe because you are more mature, you view the case more in depth considering the poor innocent child, that's why you feel injust.

[♠ Saint ♠]

I am so perplexed now by this thread. It was originally in a debate forum. And it's apparently okay for people to express their thoughts on abortion here, provided they aren't in any way religious or moral. What the crap is this thread for? So all the pro-choice people can sit around and agree with each other? Perhaps I'm just not qualified to post in this thread. My morality and religious beliefs are part of who I am. I don't think I can go anywhere without taking them with me. I'll take my morality and my religious beliefs and go play in the other threads now.

There you go being dramatic again. Of course you can post here but saying that abortion is assassination is being dramatic. Saying you are not qualified to post here is being dramatic. Dispense with it, honestly. You've got just as much right to be here as I do.

On an unrelated note, I fear each day that the US is getting closer and closer to being a theocratic government. Religion and government should be two seperate entities, religion being subject to the government's laws. The government should respect religion as well. However, with a President like ours, I have to raise some questions. I fear that his religious convictions are impairing his impartiality.

Christians may be the majority in this country but that doesn't mean that their beliefs should be put into our laws. The last time we mixed religion and government, people got hanged in Salem and the Iquisition reigned.

Therani, are you against all abortions, whatever the reason might be? I mean, what if the baby was a danger to the ******'s health? What if they determined that the baby had Tay-Sachs disease and would live a life of pain? How about if the woman was raped? Would you force them to keep their babies at the risk of their life/heart/sanity?

It's been said before and I'll say it again. If you don't like abortions, then don't have one.

Oh and a bumber sticker I saw the other day when I was in Jacksonville:
Keep your God out of my uterus!

[therani]

Therani, are you against all abortions, whatever the reason might be? I mean, what if the baby was a danger to the ******'s health? What if they determined that the baby had Tay-Sachs disease and would live a life of pain? How about if the woman was raped? Would you force them to keep their babies at the risk of their life/heart/sanity?

It's been said before and I'll say it again. If you don't like abortions, then don't have one.

Oh and a bumber sticker I saw the other day when I was in Jacksonville:
Keep your God out of my uterus!


I have problems with our government, too. I believe that if my religion forbids abortion, I shouldn't have to pay for other people to have abortions!

I am against all abortions. No baby deserves to be deprived of a chance at life, even if their life lasts only for a few years, or a few days, or a few hours due to a disease or deformity. A baby shouldn't be condemned to die because his or her daddy was a rapist. If there is a horrible medical problem and the baby and the mom can't both be saved, and the baby can't survive outside the mom, and a surrogate mom isn't an option, then save the mom. The baby would have ended up dead either way. Situations like this should be extremely rare with the medical advances we have today.

If I don't like abortions, don't have one? I couldn't have one if I wanted to. I can't have children.

My favorite bumper sticker says, "If it's not a Baby, You're not Pregnant!" :D


"And the day after I was born, I was already chosen to die.. as I trembled in fear, I would think, 'Life isn't something that should be taken by others.' I was born like this! I should at least have the right to live and die freely! Whether it's humans or insects, or even us, it's the same." -- Kon

I wonder if Kubo's pro-life.

[Manjisan]

I'm pro-choice simply because I don't believe a child should have to grow up without the love of a parent. If society became pro-life, then there would be alot of children going to adoption clinics or being raised in houses where the parents resent the child who basically ruined their life. Plus, children who are stuck in the system usually get taken from house to house simply because they learned at an early age that their parents didn't want them but still had them and discarded them llike an old toy or something. Those children resent life, and don't trust the people around them and usually have problems with being loved or fears of abandoment. Plus, a person should be allowed to choose what they do with their own body. Christians seem to be the most in a roar for pro-life and they tend to kill others simply because they don't believe in their version of God.

[therani]

I'm pro-choice simply because I don't believe a child should have to grow up without the love of a parent. If society became pro-life, then there would be alot of children going to adoption clinics or being raised in houses where the parents resent the child who basically ruined their life. Plus, children who are stuck in the system usually get taken from house to house simply because they learned at an early age that their parents didn't want them but still had them and discarded them llike an old toy or something. Those children resent life, and don't trust the people around them and usually have problems with being loved or fears of abandoment. Plus, a person should be allowed to choose what they do with their own body. Christians seem to be the most in a roar for pro-life and they tend to kill others simply because they don't believe in their version of God.

Children going to adoption agencies would be a Good Thing. Some of them have very long waiting lists. I know people who've adopted children from foreign countries because the local adoption agencies were taking so long to find them a baby. Parents who don't want to raise their baby Should put them up for adoption.

Children who get "stuck in the system" are often children who became wards of the court long after they were babies. Most of them had parents who Wanted them, and then suddenly didn't have them anymore later in childhood. Abortion wouldn't have even been an issue in most of these cases. Maybe their parents raised them lovingly for 10 years and then died in a freak accident? Maybe he was raised by a single mom who loved him but she got arrested when he was 14 for dealing crack? If a person grows up to have emotional issues because they didn't have a happy childhood, there is such a thing as Therapy, Manjisan. Lots of people overcome their unhappy childhoods and succeed in life anyway.

"But they might have an unhappy childhood!" is one of the worst rationalizations I've ever heard for killing a baby.

Okay to do what you want with your body? It's never been okay to do whatever you want with your body. Prostitution, illegal drug use, and suicide spring to mind. And when someone is pregnant, there's more than one body involved.

Any person who "tends to kill others simply because they don't believe in their version of God" is no real Christian, whatever they may call themselves. If a person is truly a Christian, they will follow the commandment that prohibits murder.

[jewlreya]

In the first place, if one is a real Christian, they can't have sex before marriage right? I heard it somewhere so I don't think Christians have much problem with it. But I think one have to decide themselves rather than having the government involve in one's personal life.

[therani]

In the first place, if one is a real Christian, they can't have sex before marriage right? I heard it somewhere so I don't think Christians have much problem with it. But I think one have to decide themselves rather than having the government involve in one's personal life.

That's correct. They're not supposed to have sex unless it's with a person they're currently married to. And you'd be amazed at how many Christians fall short of glory in that area.

The government Is involved in my personal life. They're taking taxpayer money and using it to pay for people to have abortions. If I'm pro-life, why the heck should my money be used to kill other people's babies?

[jewlreya]

I guess a lot of people just don't really bother so much. They just don't think of the 'what if' incidents that might occur due to their behaviour.

But still, it's a personal issue. Without abortion, some people will just die or rot. But I understand how you feel especially when taxes over your side must be really high. And I don't encourage abortion. Somehow it's just a path for those people who are not ready to give birth.

[Chocostars]

I am pro-choice. I know people say if they are religious they should wait until they are married. But in honesty people are flawed. We all know this. Whether or not, people will be having sex. This does not mean that just because people can't control their urges that we can kill unwanted babies.

However, forgetting about the parents, can you imagine a child being brought up in an environment when they were a mistake? If the father was not around? If the mom didn't have enough money. Abortion may sound like an easy thing but women who have had abortions never fully recover from the fact that they killed a living thing in their body.

The main reason I am pro-choice would be for women who were rapped. They couldn't control what happened to them. If they got pregant, that would be awful. Not only where they violated but they have to carry a child for 9 months and raise it for the rest of their lives. What an awful reminder of what happened.

This is not really my point of view but I know that it is easy for people to say that you can simply give up the baby for adoption but honestly some people just don't want to carry a baby for 9 months. As awful as this sounds, some people are ashamed that they got knocked up and having to face people. It is a selfish reason but there are people like that.

I personally am happy with people in foreign countries who gave up their baby for adoption. I have a former highschool teacher who's wife was unable to have any babies. He is probably Scottish decent but he adopted two babies from China. He loves and adores them. He is the type of person who wants to raise his daughters right by thinking about Chinese school for them. In this case the two daughters were lucky. Honestly though, there are some parents who even if they adopt kids they are still awful parents. This is reality, doesn't mean it's right but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen either.

edit: I just glaced at previous posts but I didn't really read them. I'm sure there are some people who are completely pro-life. Which is fine. Everyone has their own opinion. This happens to be my own.

[♠ Saint ♠]

I have problems with our government, too. I believe that if my religion forbids abortion, I shouldn't have to pay for other people to have abortions!

I am against all abortions. No baby deserves to be deprived of a chance at life, even if their life lasts only for a few years, or a few days, or a few hours due to a disease or deformity. A baby shouldn't be condemned to die because his or her daddy was a rapist. If there is a horrible medical problem and the baby and the mom can't both be saved, and the baby can't survive outside the mom, and a surrogate mom isn't an option, then save the mom. The baby would have ended up dead either way. Situations like this should be extremely rare with the medical advances we have today.

If I don't like abortions, don't have one? I couldn't have one if I wanted to. I can't have children.

My favorite bumper sticker says, "If it's not a Baby, You're not Pregnant!" :D


"And the day after I was born, I was already chosen to die.. as I trembled in fear, I would think, 'Life isn't something that should be taken by others.' I was born like this! I should at least have the right to live and die freely! Whether it's humans or insects, or even us, it's the same." -- Kon

I wonder if Kubo's pro-life.


Oi, oi. Since when does the State foot the bill for abortions? Correct me if I'm wrong but most healthcare companies don't cover abortions and it's usually something you have to pay for out of pocket.

In that regard, I can't argue with you there. It annoys me sh!tless that my father has been a good taxpayer for years and the idiots at city hall have been misusing funds that were SUPPOSED to go to paving our road. They spread a layer of clay over it so when it rains, as it is likely to do in Florida, the road becomes a swamp and we can't go to work.

Back on topic, a surrogate mother is implanted with a fertilized egg. You can't move a baby from womb to womb because the egg anchors itself in the uterine wall once fertilized.

So you would force a woman who was raped to have a child she does not want to begin with? How is that fair to mother? Sure, she could give the child up for adoption but then they'd have to worry for the rest of their life about whether or not their child is being cared for. That is anguish right there.

And what about in the case of incest? If a father gets his daughter pregnant, you want that little girl have a baby? Deplorable. Sure it's not the baby's fault for being conceived but should the girl be punished by making her carry the child to term?

My argument is that abortion should be used when necessary and not as a form of birth control. Taking a stance of either absolute of banning them totally or letting everyone have them doesn't sit with me either. I do agree that once a child has been well established (has a heartbeat and such- forgot what month it start at), then an abortion should not be permitted. What is it called where they don't allow abortions after the third trimester?

Blah...

[therani]

So you would force a woman who was raped to have a child she does not want to begin with? How is that fair to mother? Sure, she could give the child up for adoption but then they'd have to worry for the rest of their life about whether or not their child is being cared for. That is anguish right there.

And what about in the case of incest? If a father gets his daughter pregnant, you want that little girl have a baby? Deplorable. Sure it's not the baby's fault for being conceived but should the girl be punished by making her carry the child to term?


Adoption is a good thing. It is a solution that lets both victims of the rape actually live. Abortion turns a rape victim into a rape victim/murderess, who must deal with not only the trauma of the rape, but the guilt of having killed an innocent baby just because he or she reminded her of somebody she didn't like. In the case of incest, adoption is still a good thing. If at all possible, let Everybody live. I don't think anybody should have to die for the sins of their father, no matter how old they are.

[Lunar]

I'm all for pro-choice. Why bring a living creature into this world if you can't give him/her the best of you.

[garouga]

I am totally against abortion except in cases of rape.

[faqcorner]

pro-life...if it is what I think that this topic is.....

[Griffith]

Sorry to dig up this thread, but I didn't want to start a new one -- I think that sometimes it's literally impossible to fully empathize with someone in a situation like some women are put into unless you are, actually them. So we can scream pro-life or pro-choice or whatever all we want, but we know jack all about what they're going through or how they came to be that way, so I think our own selfish opinions mean **** on a topic like this.

Having said that, I am pro-choice.

[Babbo]

Sorry to dig up this thread, but I didn't want to start a new one -- I think that sometimes it's literally impossible to fully empathize with someone in a situation like some women are put into unless you are, actually them. So we can scream pro-life or pro-choice or whatever all we want, but we know jack all about what they're going through or how they came to be that way, so I think our own selfish opinions mean **** on a topic like this.

Having said that, I am pro-choice.well it depends on how you loook at it..converserly babbo could say that it's selfish to kill a baby just cause you don't want to go through some pain, which despite the great pain of giving birth is inconsequential when compared to the value of life <_<

having empathy is nice but it's worthless when it's one sided <_<

[Griffith]

well it depends on how you loook at it..converserly babbo could say that it's selfish to kill a baby just cause you don't want to go through some pain, which despite the great pain of giving birth is inconsequential when compared to the value of life <_<

having empathy is nice but it's worthless when it's one sided <_<

True, but there is other pain that can result from this -- if the fetus is unwanted from the first place, enough for a woman to consider abortion, do you really think it will get the love it deserves once it actually becomes a living baby? it would most likely live a harsh life/be abandoned/be sent from foster home to foster home, and also burden a possibly young mother who could of been raped, or may have made one of those big once in a lifetime mistakes that you wish you could take back, or the fetus' father may have abandoned her, etc.

There are so many factors to take into consideration, and while it is the mother's responsibility as well, her own life is her primary responsibility. I'm not saying I support women who just sleep around and get an abortion every time they get preganant, but I do support abortions in certain scenarios.

I don't want to get into the whole "it's not technically actually a baby yet" scientific crap because then we may as well copy and paste all the other 239042934283409 arguments on abortions that there have been in the past and will be in the future.

Anyway my two cents!

Griff

[Babbo]

True, but there is other pain that can result from this -- if the fetus is unwanted from the first place, enough for a woman to consider abortion, do you really think it will get the love it deserves once it actually becomes a living baby? it would most likely live a harsh life/be abandoned/be sent from foster home to foster home, and also burden a possibly young mother who could of been raped, or may have made one of those big once in a lifetime mistakes that you wish you could take back, or the fetus' father may have abandoned her, etc.

There are so many factors to take into consideration, and while it is the mother's responsibility as well, her own life is her primary responsibility. I'm not saying I support women who just sleep around and get an abortion every time they get preganant, but I do support abortions in certain scenarios.

I don't want to get into the whole "it's not technically actually a baby yet" scientific crap because then we may as well copy and paste all the other 239042934283409 arguments on abortions that there have been in the past and will be in the future.

Anyway my two cents!

Griffoh...so instead of living a mediocre life (which by the way is what a majority of the world population is living) it'd just be better to kill the child before it's born?...burden? that's why there's adoption <_<

wow...babbo has no idea why he's awake at this time @_@

[Griffith]

oh...so instead of living a mediocre life (which by the way is what a majority of the world population is living) it'd just be better to kill the child before it's born?...burden? that's why there's adoption <_<

wow...babbo has no idea why he's awake at this time @_@

My buddy's mother was adopted and went from foster home to foster home, it's a miracle she survived all the sexual molestation and abuse.

I don't know about you Babs but I'm going to sleep:p

Conclusion: Babbo = Pro life and Griff = Pro choice

*passes out instantly*

[speedphantom]

I know it can be quite terrible to end a life that wasn't intended to exist in the first place but I feel more for the women who will have their lives completely messed up by having a child.

They obviously didn't want it in the first place so it would be a burden and they may not be prepared or willing to care for the baby as well. Adoption is all well and good but the child may not be given the best care etc.

I said pro-choice.

[Ryashi]

I went for Pro-choice
You cannot put a concrete set of rules on anything - it is never black or white.
Plus -we have free will for a reason.
A lot of people might say that the unborn child should live no matter what - it's all good saying that but would you look after ALL the children that have been abandoned or born into a world where they're not wanted? That kind of world is a living hell.
It's very easy saying something that doesn't affect you.

I'm done :D

[yum yum]

The choice to have an abortion shouldn't be taken away from everybody just because there are some dumbasses out there who abuse it. There are things called cirmcumstance...desperate circumstances. And just because most of us will never experience it and will never be able to comprehend all the possible reasons why abortion is needed doesn't mean we should limit others.

[cravenight]

Wow, really old thread, hm, i'm have always been pro-choice though. I understand that many people have stupid reason for doing it, but its still there choice.

[eightfold]

I kind of sit in the middle between the two, but being of a Catholic faith, I'm leaning a little more towards pro-life. However being pro-life doesn't really matter, because it's ultimately the woman's decision. There are certain situations in which I would understand why she would want to go through it though (i.e. getting raped, like a few have mentioned). In which case I'd support their decision.

BUT if the woman was in a relationship with a man and she somehow ended up getting pregnant, then it's the decision of the couple, not just the woman's, whether to get an abortion or not. Regardless of that, I'm still pro-life, but I'm not gonna force down my belief on a person.

Most women I know are pro-choice though. But abortion is a pretty big deal. I haven't personally met anyone that has had an abortion, but from what I've heard from others, the women who've had one always regret it.

Edit:
Heh, just noticed an error. I said I was pro-choice when I meant pro-life.

[Nailbeer]

Hmm...here's my stance on the subject:

1. I don't consider it a seperate life until the cord is cut. Till' then, it's only a potential life. You don't award people for potential discovery, do you?

2. If we illegalize it, people will have to see abortionists in dark alleys and it won't be someone they trust. Whether we like it or not, people will continue aborting, even if it's illegalized.

3. I know a lot of people with the opinion "Well, it's their fault, so now they gotta live with it." Well...Have we really devalued a baby so much as to use one as punishment? How do you think that once it's born, that baby's life will be like? If it's not adopted, it will eventually have to face the fact that it was never wanted by anyone, and was a mistake. Children should be brought up in loving families.

4. I also know people who use the excuse that it's brutally inhumane. I have to agree. They either poison, chop up or beat the baby to death if they don't take it out unharmed and leave it to die. Yes, they can feel pain. But so do the animals you eat, and for you vegatarians, there was a study somewhere and the conclusion was that yes, plants do feel pain. And anyway, it's nothing compared to what hitler did. He made lamp shades out of human skin, among other things.

[Babbo]

I know it can be quite terrible to end a life that wasn't intended to exist in the first place but I feel more for the women who will have their lives completely messed up by having a child.

They obviously didn't want it in the first place so it would be a burden and they may not be prepared or willing to care for the baby as well. Adoption is all well and good but the child may not be given the best care etc.

I said pro-choice.who's to say that humans have the right to say wheter or not another should exist?

Most women I know are pro-choice though. But abortion is a pretty big deal. I haven't personally met anyone that has had an abortion, but from what I've heard from others, the women who've had one always regret it.
exactly....best example out there is wade <_<


1. I don't consider it a seperate life until the cord is cut. Till' then, it's only a potential life. You don't award people for potential discovery, do you?

that's just the law talking....during bio we went over the formal definition of a living hing (which babbo can't remeber) and even the teacher (who is staunchly pro choice) admitted that a fetus can by scientific standards be considered a living thing <_<
(and no babbo didn't bring it up she did)



2. If we illegalize it, people will have to see abortionists in dark alleys and it won't be someone they trust. Whether we like it or not, people will continue aborting, even if it's illegalized.
and many still do despite the fact that it is legal...particularly underage women whoare afraid of what might happen with their family; or if it's gone too far into term <_<


3. I know a lot of people with the opinion "Well, it's their fault, so now they gotta live with it." Well...Have we really devalued a baby so much as to use one as punishment? How do you think that once it's born, that baby's life will be like? If it's not adopted, it will eventually have to face the fact that it was never wanted by anyone, and was a mistake. Children should be brought up in loving families.
so if it can't be loved kill it? that's a pretty narrow view point ...


4. I also know people who use the excuse that it's brutally inhumane. I have to agree. They either poison, chop up or beat the baby to death if they don't take it out unharmed and leave it to die. Yes, they can feel pain. But so do the animals you eat, and for you vegatarians, there was a study somewhere and the conclusion was that yes, plants do feel pain. And anyway, it's nothing compared to what hitler did. He made lamp shades out of human skin, among other things.no offense but every living thing eats something others but most of hem don't kill their offspring before they're born....
so as long as it's not as bad as hitler it's ok....hmmmmm

[Nailbeer]

from what I've heard from others, the women who've had one always regret it.

Of course they do. They form an emotion attatchment to it; it's something that might have been, but wasn't. On the subject of abortion, it's best to take a stoic's mindset and think about it logically rather than emotionally.

who's to say that humans have the right to say wheter or not another should exist?

We humans do. Abortion isn't the only example of this; there's war, murder and the death penalty, among other things.

that's just the law talking....during bio we went over the formal definition of a living hing (which babbo can't remeber) and even the teacher (who is staunchly pro choice) admitted that a fetus can by scientific standards be considered a living thing <_<
(and no babbo didn't bring it up she did)

No, it's not. It's my personal opinion; It doesn't count for anything yet. Do they give nobel prizes to someone who might do something great? No. So why should it count as life if it's not there yet?

and many still do despite the fact that it is legal...particularly underage women whoare afraid of what might happen with their family; or if it's gone too far into term <_<

But that's a small minority. If it were illegalized, the number of people getting abortions who get them by people they shouldn't trust in back alleys will skyrocket to 100%.

so if it can't be loved kill it? that's a pretty narrow view point ...

That was only half of my argument...If it can't be loved because it was used as a punishment for their actions, then prevent it from living to regret it.

On the first page, you yourself used that argument, that they need to take responsibility and accept their consequences. Well...having sex is not the end of the world, and it's hardly fair to punish that with the burden of a life to care for. Would you go up to your kid and say "I know you've been ****ing, now you have to pay for, train and love this puppy." I don't think so. I think you would either have a talk or ground your kid for a while, neither of which are equal to caring for a child. Babies aren't good punishment.

no offense but every living thing eats something others but most of hem don't kill their offspring before they're born....

Most animals also don't drive cars, have religion or know anything about the food pyramid. Humans are intelligent, and we can come up with rational explanations, develop new technology and feel a wider scale of emotions.

so as long as it's not as bad as hitler it's ok....hmmmmm

I don't think abortion is bad at all.

[Katsuki]

I think... well... the child's not at fault and everything deserves a chance... Unless of course it involves a birth risk on the mother's part... (My mom's an OBGYN and sometimes she does abortions if the mother's chances of living are slim... better to save the mom rather than the kid or something...but she consults them first of course so it's with consent) I dunno... but I can say for sure... if I got pregnant, I'd keep it.

[Griffith]

I think... well... the child's not at fault and everything deserves a chance... Unless of course it involves a birth risk on the mother's part... (My mom's an OBGYN and sometimes she does abortions if the mother's chances of living are slim... better to save the mom rather than the kid or something...but she consults them first of course so it's with consent) I dunno... but I can say for sure... if I got pregnant, I'd keep it.

Even if you got raped or had an accident? You would give up all your hopes and dreams, give up your schooling, just to take care of a child you didn't plan for and wasn't even alive yet? Sure, maybe you would if you had your parents support right now, but what if you had an accident and your parents kicked you out of your house and the father of your child ditched you? Then what would you do. It's all about circumstance, and that's why there should be a choice.

Someone made a point earlier that if abortions weren't legalized, people would just get it done illegally and with less information, which would be even more dangerous.

[aznxenocide]

there's no way to make legislation forbidding it. there's always going to be drunk accidents, rapists, etc etc. the moral viewpoing is laudable, but pragmatically speaking, forbidding it will just cause more problems to arise.

personally, i'm pro-choice. the reasons behind which i feel are too deep to be discussing in a bleach forum. =P hahaha just kidding. choice just means you can either get an abortion, or you can not. there's no set rule, like "you HAVE to have the baby." it just gives you more options, which i don't see why so many people are so against. what's wrong with more options??

[Babbo]

We humans do. Abortion isn't the only example of this; there's war, murder and the death penalty, among other things.you make it sound like war and murder are justifialbe, kinda interesting that your first comparsion to abortion are those <_<



No, it's not. It's my personal opinion; It doesn't count for anything yet. Do they give nobel prizes to someone who might do something great? No. So why should it count as life if it's not there yet?like babbo already said, it is life already...just cause it hasn't done anything yet doesn't mean that it's alright to end it...most 5 yr olds haven't done much yet either; in fact aside from the possiblity of an unborn child being killed, it has pretty much the same potential for becoming greater as a five year child does <_<



But that's a small minority. If it were illegalized, the number of people getting abortions who get them by people they shouldn't trust in back alleys will skyrocket to 100%. no...it's happens all over the world..and alot of women go for the homemade remedies first <_<



That was only half of my argument...If it can't be loved because it was used as a punishment for their actions, then prevent it from living to regret it. That's still hardly any justification for killing a child


On the first page, you yourself used that argument, that they need to take responsibility and accept their consequences. Well...having sex is not the end of the world, and it's hardly fair to punish that with the burden of a life to care for. Would you go up to your kid and say "I know you've been ****ing, now you have to pay for, train and love this puppy." I don't think so. I think you would either have a talk or ground your kid for a while, neither of which are equal to caring for a child. Babies aren't good punishment. Yes they should live with the consequences of their actions; a child is a punishment only by their own decision....and they shouldn't be having sex in the first place if they look at the end result of sex as a punishment <_<



Most animals also don't drive cars, have religion or know anything about the food pyramid. Humans are intelligent, and we can come up with rational explanations, develop new technology and feel a wider scale of emotions.
Exactly, humans as a whole think themselves above other animals yet they can commit acts of depravity that animals would never consider <_<
There is no rational argument for murder, war and in babbo's opinoin abortion <_<
wider range of emotions? prove it ;p


I don't think abortion is bad at all.obviously not but using hitler as a standard to defend abortion is ridiculous, there plnety of things that aren't as bad as the acts of nazi Germany, but you know what? no one with any level of common sense would commit them cause they're horrible as well <_<

[Katsuki]

Even if you got raped or had an accident? You would give up all your hopes and dreams, give up your schooling, just to take care of a child you didn't plan for and wasn't even alive yet? Sure, maybe you would if you had your parents support right now, but what if you had an accident and your parents kicked you out of your house and the father of your child ditched you? Then what would you do. It's all about circumstance, and that's why there should be a choice.

Someone made a point earlier that if abortions weren't legalized, people would just get it done illegally and with less information, which would be even more dangerous.I cans ort of relate to that.... I just never got pregnant. xD Preventing childbirth is different from ending it. I agree though that women can and should be able to choose wether they want to keep it or not... I'm just saying I will.

[Griffith]

I cans ort of relate to that.... I just never got pregnant. xD Preventing childbirth is different from ending it. I agree though that women can and should be able to choose wether they want to keep it or not... I'm just saying I will.

Fair enough - I had a similar experience where it was a close call, thank god for the morning after pill, which is something I think this generation should be more educated about in school.

[Katsuki]

Fair enough - I had a similar experience where it was a close call, thank god for the morning after pill, which is something I think this generation should be more educated about in school.Amen to that one man... amen...

[Nailbeer]

Most of what you just was isolating one of my arguments and proving it wrong without the rest of it, so I'm only going to respond to what actually counts.

like babbo already said, it is life already...just cause it hasn't done anything yet doesn't mean that it's alright to end it...most 5 yr olds haven't done much yet either; in fact aside from the possiblity of an unborn child being killed, it has pretty much the same potential for becoming greater as a five year child does <_<

If you're to count any possiblity of life as a chance for achievement, then you must be against masturbation and safe sex (those poor sperms will never grow up to do anything).

Yes they should live with the consequences of their actions; a child is a punishment only by their own decision....and they shouldn't be having sex in the first place if they look at the end result of sex as a punishment <_<

The point is, they don't, but you do. If they just wanted the pleasure and nothing more, and then she got pregnant...It shouldn't be forced upon them.

obviously not but using hitler as a standard to defend abortion is ridiculous, there plnety of things that aren't as bad as the acts of nazi Germany, but you know what? no one with any level of common sense would commit them cause they're horrible as well <_<

Sometimes 'horrible' is required. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that the world is all lollipops and candy.

[Unicorn]

I'm for pro-choice. Really, it's my body, my life, my future. Stop trying to control what I think and do.

Case studies can be studied in every detail, however, there are always going to be grey areas that other people (outside the situation) can never fully understand.

I respect pro-life views. Please respect pro-choice views too.

[taramjwi]

I'm pro-choice as well. I also hate politics so this will be my only post in this thread -_-

[Babbo]

I'm pro-choice as well. I also hate politics so this will be my only post in this thread -_-that's much more appropriate than you last post <_<

[taramjwi]

that's much more appropriate than you last post <_<
Do I really want to know? I posted things last night that I didn't remember until seeing them.

[Babbo]

Most of what you just was isolating one of my arguments and proving it wrong without the rest of it, so I'm only going to respond to what actually counts.


[QUOTE=Nailbeer]
If you're to count any possiblity of life as a chance for achievement, then you must be against masturbation and safe sex (those poor sperms will never grow up to do anything).
sperm is on a whole different scale.. it requires an action for potential.....and unbron childs only needs 9 months <_<



The point is, they don't, but you do. If they just wanted the pleasure and nothing more, and then she got pregnant...It shouldn't be forced upon them. Forced on them? They brought it on themsleves; they forced it on themslves....you'd have to be reatrded not to no that if you have sex there's the possiblity that there will be a baby <_<



Sometimes 'horrible' is required. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that the world is all lollipops and candy.Lollipops and candy? violence is never required; only human weakness can bring it about <_< You'd have to be even more naive to think violence is a necessity <_<

Do I really want to know? I posted things last night that I didn't remember until seeing them.no you just bypassed the cussword blocker...that technically consitutes a ban <_<

[taramjwi]

no you just bypassed the cussword blocker...that technically consitutes a ban <_<
Woops. I'll make it a note not to do that again.

[Unicorn]

Forced on them? They brought it on themsleves; they forced it on themslves....you'd have to be reatrded not to no that if you have sex there's the possiblity that there will be a baby

It takes two to tango. Why are women always, always blamed for getting into compromising situations? *sigh*

I'm pro-choice. I choose.... to have all men chemically castrated every single time they step out of their houses. That will definitely bring down the number of 'accidents'.... Thoughts from the men?

[Babbo]

It takes two to tango. Why are women always, always blamed for getting into compromising situations? *sigh*

I'm pro-choice. I choose.... to have all men are chemically castrated every single time they step out of their houses. That will definitely bring down the number of 'accidents'.... Thoughts from the men?yes it does and the women coincidently is also one of the two that have to tango <_<

I know that was prolly a joke (right?) but if that hepnned you'd end up kiling population growth ;p

[Unicorn]

I know that was prolly a joke (right?) but if that hepnned you'd end up kiling population growth ;p

Not a joke. The technology exists. Both pro-life and pro-choice provide examples of 'accidents'. Rape seems to be classified under 'accidents' too.

So why not remove the possibility of accidents altogether? Abortion clinics can be absorbed into hospitals, where people can only use them if their life is in danger.

Killing population growth? *looks at overcrowded slums, the clearing of more wildlands for farms and housing, the technology to look for more water / fuel / whatever* I really think we should give the wild animals SOMEWHERE to live. We've already taken over pretty much most of the planet.

[Nailbeer]

sperm is on a whole different scale.. it requires an action for potential.....and unbron childs only needs 9 months <_<

No, an unborn child also needs to be delivered and cared for.

Forced on them? They brought it on themsleves; they forced it on themslves....you'd have to be reatrded not to no that if you have sex there's the possiblity that there will be a baby <_<

If it was illegalized, it would be. Normally they can abort and take away their burden, but by refusing them that right, the law forces it on them.

Lollipops and candy? violence is never required; only human weakness can bring it about <_< You'd have to be even more naive to think violence is a necessity <_<

Hmm...No. That's completely false. It's something I'd expect an elementary schooler to think, but not someone who knows how the world works. Hence, your naivete.

[Babbo]

No, an unborn child also needs to be delivered and cared for. of course but it won't mean anything if oyu kill the child first <_<



If it was illegalized, it would be. Normally they can abort and take away their burden, but by refusing them that right, the law forces it on them. and that changes the fact that they brought it upon themselves how?



Hmm...No. That's completely false. It's something I'd expect an elementary schooler to think, but not someone who knows how the world works. Hence, your naivete.yeah I guess that's why there's a whole a proffession (and numberous institutions and organizations) built around the idea of avoiding violence(it's called dimplomacy...even elmentary students know that) :rolleyes:

[yum yum]

Let's chill for a little bit. It's not cool when the debate turns into borderline insult/attack on the other poster

@Babbo: just curious here. So you think abortion should be banned altogether? Including pregnancies that would endanger the mother's life? Or are you just against abortion from 'irresponsible sex' and rape?

[Babbo]

Let's chill for a little bit. It's not cool when the debate turns into borderline insult/attack on the other poster

@Babbo: just curious here. So you think abortion should be banned altogether? Including pregnancies that would endanger the mother's life? Or are you just against abortion from 'irresponsible sex' and rape?well it's questionalbe; but if babbo were to accep it all it would be in the case of danger to the mothers life <_<

[Nailbeer]

of course but it won't mean anything if oyu kill the child first <_<

You're beginning to understand my point of view. :] Just apply that to a fetus and you're ready to go.

and that changes the fact that they brought it upon themselves how?

Because they're not forced to keep it....Wait...No. They brought it on themselves but the option to push it away is gone.

yeah I guess that's why there's a whole a proffession (and numberous institutions and organizations) built around the idea of avoiding violence(it's called dimplomacy...even elmentary students know that) :rolleyes:

This isn't really on topic...But anyway, diplomacy isn't there because people think violence can and should be avoided, it's to lessen the damage done and form an agreement that everyone is at least partly satisfied with. Whenever something is hungry or something disagreeable is brought up, violence is born.

[Babbo]

You're beginning to understand my point of view. :] Just apply that to a fetus and you're ready to go. no...cause along your lines of reasonin so far babbo could kill a 5 yr child and it wouldn't matter all that much because the child only had mere potnetial to really become anything <_<



Because they're not forced to keep it....Wait...No. They brought it on themselves but the option to push it away is gone.


This isn't really on topic...But anyway, diplomacy isn't there because people think violence can and should be avoided, it's to lessen the damage done and form an agreement that everyone is at least partly satisfied with. Whenever something is hungry or something disagreeable is brought up, violence is born.you;'re the one who said it was naive to thing violence is not a necessity...and no that is not the purpose of dimplomacy; negotiation is one of the first things that often happens before war; and most conflicts are often settled before it comes down to violence, we just don't hear about them <_<

[Griffith]

yeah I guess that's why there's a whole a proffession (and numberous institutions and organizations) built around the idea of avoiding violence(it's called dimplomacy...even elmentary students know that) :rolleyes:

*gasp* Babbo didn't refer to himself in third person! :eek:

Unicorn, I'm going to pretend you're joking. I'll leave it at that.

[yum yum]

*gasp* Babbo didn't refer to himself in third person! :eek:

Unicorn, I'm going to pretend you're joking. I'll leave it at that.

That's a very good catch. Heheh, had to say it.

[Nailbeer]

no...cause along your lines of reasonin so far babbo could kill a 5 yr child and it wouldn't matter all that much because the child only had mere potnetial to really become anything <_<



The difference is, the child is alive and can put up (not much of a) fight.


you;'re the one who said it was naive to thing violence is not a necessity...and no that is not the purpose of dimplomacy; negotiation is one of the first things that often happens before war; and most conflicts are often settled before it comes down to violence, we just don't hear about them <_<

I know that, it works most of the time. But, it's human nature to fight over things rather than reason it out. Every time someone argues without hitting or is generally nice, it's resistance against human nature. Deep in our cores, we're told to survive, and that's it. Not everyone is good at resisting themselves, so violence occurs. It's not something that can ever be prevented.

[Babbo]

The difference is, the child is alive and can put up (not much of a) fight.the unrborn child is alive as well <_<



I know that, it works most of the time. But, it's human nature to fight over things rather than reason it out. Every time someone argues without hitting or is generally nice, it's resistance against human nature. Deep in our cores, we're told to survive, and that's it. Not everyone is good at resisting themselves, so violence occurs. It's not something that can ever be prevented.just because it's unavodable in some cases doens't mean it's a necessity <_<

[uranai]

i think that an unborn child is just a bunch of cells, because humanization comes from thoughts and actions, not just dna.

[thexwired]

i voted pro-choice.

personally, if i were ever in a situation where i discovered i was pregnant, but not prepared for it, i would do my best to have the baby and raise it the best i could. i don't believe in abortion for myself.

on the other hand, i believe that women should have complete control over their own bodies, and it should be up to them whether or not abortion is the right option for them. not many people know about all of their options, however, so abortion is the most readily used option for most unexpectedly pregnant women.

personally, i believe that abortion should only be used in certain situations, such as when a woman is raped and becomes pregnant. if she feels uncomfortable giving birth to and raising a child that was sired by a man who did her considerable physical and emotional harm, that should be up to her. another situation in which i feel abortion is acceptable is when a pregnancy could harm the life of the woman. for instance, my mother, before she was pregnant with me, was pregnant with twins. (well... it didn't start off as twins... she got pregnant, and then a month later got pregnant again... two separate eggs... so fraternal twins a month apart.) the first twin miscarried, but the second twin remained inside her uterus. all would have been well except for the fact that her cervix (the opening in the uterus where the fetus comes out) never closed. her doctor was forced to abort the second twin or else it would cause considerable harm to her. in a case like this, when it's either the unborn child or the mother, i believe that abortion is acceptable.

but this is just my opinion.

[Babbo]

it's the idea of sentience that makes abortion a problem, it's the fact that it's a living being that will certainly becom a sentieint one if they are allowed to <_<

[Unicorn]

Unicorn, I'm going to pretend you're joking. I'll leave it at that.

Typical male response. So... conclusion... :

1) Women's bodies should be controlled / restricted by some sort of law that forces them to carry any and all babies to full term. All except those pregnancies that risk the mother's life.
2) Any suggestion to similarly control / restrict men's rights in the reproduction stakes are taken as a joke. Lo and behold, their activities are unhindered and they can go on blaming women for putting themselves into compromising situations.

So much for equality. :mad:

[pheonixfire]

Although I am 100% pro-choice, i think in my own personal case if happened to me, i would have the baby. I can barely kill a bug, none the less a child. But still, a woman should have the right to choose for herself, after all its coming our of her, not anybody else.

this might sound a bit harsh, but the girl did get herself in a place/situation where she was raped....it's kinda cruel say "Oh, it wasn't my fault that I got pregnant, that means that i can kill the baby"......

In situations like this it is always so easy to look at things from just one angle. I might not fully understand, but i can see how it is that u feel this way. But on the flips side, how do you think the child of the person who raped her will be brought up in this life? You must realize that there are cases where, even if raped, a minors parents may feel that she should keep and raise the baby. Then what? Do you really think that she would be able to raise it with the love and nurturing it deserves? Or will it merely be another case of child abuse? Does the child deserve that? How about the mother? Imagine looking into your childs eyes everyday and seeing nothing but the image of the one who has hurt u so? Its screwed but its reality.

And don't even get me started on the whole "but the girl did get herself in a place/situation where she was raped" thing. Lets just hope that you don't walk down the wrong street at night. Oh, wait, thats right. According to you, it would be your own fault, right?

[Babbo]

Typical male response. So... conclusion... : ^ Typical over defensive feminist repsonse <_<


1) Women's bodies should be controlled / restricted by some sort of law that forces them to carry any and all babies to full term. All except those pregnancies that risk the mother's life.
2) Any suggestion to similarly control / restrict men's rights in the reproduction stakes are taken as a joke. Lo and behold, their activities are unhindered and they can go on blaming women for putting themselves into compromising situations.

So much for equality. :mad:you sterilize one guy and all you've done is killed some sperm rather than an unborn child <_<

womens bodies? every time babbo hears that it really annoys him @_@
Hell they ended up in this situation cause they were rresponsible with their bodies in the first place <_<

Although I am 100% pro-choice, i think in my own personal case if happened to me, i would have the baby. I can barely kill a bug, none the less a child. But still, a woman should have the right to choose for herself, after all its coming our of her, not anybody else.



In situations like this it is always so easy to look at things from just one angle. I might not fully understand, but i can see how it is that u feel this way. But on the flips side, how do you think the child of the person who raped her will be brought up in this life? You must realize that there are cases where, even if raped, a minors parents may feel that she should keep and raise the baby. Then what? Do you really think that she would be able to raise it with the love and nurturing it deserves? Or will it merely be another case of child abuse? Does the child deserve that? How about the mother? Imagine looking into your childs eyes everyday and seeing nothing but the image of the one who has hurt u so? Its screwed but its reality.

And don't even get me started on the whole "but the girl did get herself in a place/situation where she was raped" thing. Lets just hope that you don't walk down the wrong street at night. Oh, wait, thats right. According to you, it would be your own fault, right?
fore once babbo can actually use abortion law to defend his argument here....minors can't get an abortion without parent consent anyways...and if the mother hated the child or seemed danger to it because of that babbo can't see how the parents whouldn't be able to do anything about it <_<

that's why babbo doen'st go to places where something along those lines is likely to happen ;p

[pheonixfire]

fore once babbo can actually use abortion law to defend his argument here....minors can't get an abortion without parent consent anyways...and if the mother hated the child or seemed danger to it because of that babbo can't see how the parents whouldn't be able to do anything about it <_<

not true in California. If ur 13 and up i believe, then u can get it. :p

that's why babbo doen'st go to places where something along those lines is likely to happen ;p

In high school my friend was raped one block away from her house on her way back from school. It was even mid-afternoon in a fairly open space. So how was this her fault?

[Unicorn]

womens bodies? Hell they ended up in this situation cause they were rresponsible with their bodies in the first place <_<


And all those men who actually provided the sperm to create those babies were angelic & completely responsible creatures with their own bodies?

If you still are of the opinion that women invite rape, then... I really wish you well.

[Babbo]

not true in California. If ur 13 and up i believe, then u can get it. :p



In high school my friend was raped one block away from her house on her way back from school. It was even mid-afternoon in a fairly open space. So how was this her fault?gah babbo can't win against stuff like that <_<

And all those men who actually provided the sperm to create those babies were angelic & completely responsible creatures with their own bodies?

If you still are of the opinion that women invite rape, then... I really wish you well.No they aren't but if it's consentual then they should both take responsibility for their actions


shwne did babbo say women invite it? was just saying that sometimes women do bring themselves into situations where they'll get raped...it wasn't a blanket statement <_<

[uranai]

Saying that an early abortion is murdering a baby is like saying that killing cockroaches is the most brutal crime ever.

Just because a bunch of cells has the capacity to one day in the future become something with some sort of ability that resembles thinking is not a valid reason to say that bunch of cells thinks, thus is human.

Besides, any full developed woman's life is worth to kill an amout of cells.

Maybe in the US is not common to see 12 year old girls pregnant in the street begging for money.....

[Tifdevil666]

Saying that an early abortion is murdering a baby is like saying that killing cockroaches is the most brutal crime ever.

Just because a bunch of cells has the capacity to one day in the future become something with some sort of ability that resembles thinking is not a valid reason to say that bunch of cells thinks, thus is human.

Besides, any full developed woman's life is worth to kill an amout of cells.

Maybe in the US is not common to see 12 year old girls pregnant in the street begging for money.....
yeah ;/ i dont know any 12 year old prengant girls ._.

[Babbo]

Saying that an early abortion is murdering a baby is like saying that killing cockroaches is the most brutal crime ever.

Just because a bunch of cells has the capacity to one day in the future become something with some sort of ability that resembles thinking is not a valid reason to say that bunch of cells thinks, thus is human.

Besides, any full developed woman's life is worth to kill an amout of cells.

Maybe in the US is not common to see 12 year old girls pregnant in the street begging for money.....abortion generally involves the killing of a fetus and not just a bunch of cells...epsecially if the woman is visibly pregnant <_<

[Ladymercury]

hmm i shall have to say im pro choice,
women have an optaion. and not to be eveil or anything but we are over popluatied a tad bit.
some will say"buts it's a life" yea? well we cna't stop that, but what if the baby with a screwd life. i mean lik ein the slums hateing every day he was born. because his mom choulden't care for him

but now. theres also adoption. thats a good one.
but woen need a choice. they have as much as rights as we (men) do.

:P


Women have the right to choose whatever they want to do with their body. Its their body, let them suffer the consequence.

[Nailbeer]

the unrborn child is alive as well <_<


So's sperm...

just because it's unavodable in some cases doens't mean it's a necessity <_<

Yes, it does. Said cases might be a necessity, right? If even one is, then so's violence.

fore once babbo can actually use abortion law to defend his argument here....minors can't get an abortion without parent consent anyways...and if the mother hated the child or seemed danger to it because of that babbo can't see how the parents whouldn't be able to do anything about it <_<

Hey, don't use the law to defend your argument! Usually when you debate, it's about whether or not it should be legal (even of those words were never spoken). You are seperate from the law, and the law can't control opinions.

[Babbo]

So's sperm...



Yes, it does. Said cases might be a necessity, right? If even one is, then so's violence.



Hey, don't use the law to defend your argument! Usually when you debate, it's about whether or not it should be legal (even of those words were never spoken). You are seperate from the law, and the law can't control opinions.but it's not a living organism <_<

why? if something can be avoided thenit isn't a necessity....and violance can always be avoided, it just isn't all that often...that doens't change the fact that it is never necessary <_<
yeah but babbo happens to agree with the law this time for once ;D

[pheonixfire]

yeah but babbo happens to agree with the law this time for once ;D

but its only the law in some places, not all. ^_^ So how does that work for an argument?

[Ladymercury]

According to science, an embryo isn't living until it develops a brain... but according to the bible, the moment the child is concieved, it is a living creature.

So, its a touchy subject. There is no right or wrong because we don't know.

[Griffith]

There's very fine lines drawn all over this topic (i.e. science vs. religion, etc.), that's why it creates such a ruckus every time the issue is brought up and makes for quite an intense and sometimes personal debate.

[Ladymercury]

Same thing with politics. That's why we have so many wars :/

[uranai]

According to science, an embryo isn't living until it develops a brain... but according to the bible, the moment the child is concieved, it is a living creature.

So, its a touchy subject. There is no right or wrong because we don't know.

And according to philosophy, one is alive when you can wonder about your own existence...

And that happens way after being born.

[Ladymercury]

And according to philosophy, one is alive when you can wonder about your own existence...

And that happens way after being born.


Very, very, true.

[Griffith]

And according to philosophy, one is alive when you can wonder about your own existence...

And that happens way after being born.

Well then according to that theory you would be able to kill newborn babies, which is stretching it a bit lol:p While I do have a positive perspective on philosophy, for this particular argument I'm all for the scientific explanation.

[Ladymercury]

Personally, when it comes to me, I would opt abortion unless it was absolutely nessciary(cantspelltonight)... like I was raped or something of the sorts, but if it was concentual, no, I wouldn't opt for it because I brought upon it myself and it was my own reckless decision.

[Griffith]

Personally, when it comes to me, I would opt abortion unless it was absolutely nessciary(cantspelltonight)... like I was raped or something of the sorts, but if it was concentual, no, I wouldn't opt for it because I brought upon it myself and it was my own reckless decision.

An honorable thing that's easy to say, but I think it would be hard to really make a decision on that for yourself until you were actually put into the situation.

[Ladymercury]

Very true, you never know until you are there .

[CaptainFuzzy]

according to the bible, the moment the child is concieved, it is a living creature.

I dont trust anything the bible says. There have been so many changes over the years to manipulate those who follow it. I took 10 years of sunday school and 2 years of theology and never did i hear anything on abortion or gay marriage or anything like that in the bible readings. Most of that crap was added by the church to play off their own opinions as the ones of god.

[Griffith]

I dont trust anything the bible says. There have been so many changes over the years to manipulate those who follow it. I took 10 years of sunday school and 2 years of theology and never did i hear anything on abortion or gay marriage or anything like that in the bible readings. Most of that crap was added by the church to play off their own opinions as the ones of god.

The church "interprets" the bible to give their answers on issues like that apparently. Anyway, a controversial statement by you, but true indeed.

[Babbo]

I dont trust anything the bible says. There have been so many changes over the years to manipulate those who follow it. I took 10 years of sunday school and 2 years of theology and never did i hear anything on abortion or gay marriage or anything like that in the bible readings. Most of that crap was added by the church to play off their own opinions as the ones of god.well no matter what way you read the bible; any interpretation of chrisitan doctrine shows such a strong value of life that abortion could hardly be said to go with any of the teachings christ <_<

anyways the few quotations babbo's knows that are used for arguments against abortion are form the old testament, we have the dead sea scrolls which are even older the church <_<

[Ladymercury]

Hmmm, well, I take the bible into reguard by reading it myself, I don't rely on someone else to interrupt it for me.

[CaptainFuzzy]

well no matter what way you read the bible; any interpretation of chrisitan doctrine shows such a strong value of life that abortion could hardly be said to go with any of the teachers christ <_<

that again brings us back to the "What is life" debate. If the fetus has a soul, the main thing that people get mad about is the fact it cannot go to heaven because it was never baptised. In my opinion, life dosnt begin untill it takes its first breath. I may be wrong, but i wont find out until i'm dead and at that point, i wont care

[Babbo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

there ya go ;D

suprisingly that's pretty much the one babbo learned in bio <_<

[Elehayym]

hard choice, since they all have good points. i'm pro-death since overpopulation is a major issue, not to mention that the gene pool is weakening, might as well let people die. But then it is a little cruel to let people die, even if they're not born yet. And for pro-choice, women should be able to choose that they want, though they are at fault if it was consented to. overall, i just don't think i really care..

[Yakamashi]

i guess i'll take the easy way out and say situational abortions.

*hypothetically*

if you and ur bf are screwing around (no pun intended >.>) and u end up pregnant what gives u the right to decide the life of another human being? even if that human being would be your child u cant just decide his/her life for him/her. what makes abortio any different from murdering your (for instance) 8 year old child? someone else is paying for a mistake you made. i dont want to look at the going-to-be-born child as a consequence but i dont find it ok to just kill him/her just b/c he/she was unintentional.

but if you were raped thats a different situtation. different situations call for different measures. u didnt have control of the situation and the only way u could prevent a rape is most probably carrying a gun around with you to scare them off o.O or turn back time and not walk down that particular alley or something like that. i'm not sure where u guys are living but here in maryland o.O we are NOT allowed to walk anywhere in public with a gun and we, humans in general, cannot turn back time. can you imagine having to carry the child of a man who raped you? can you imagine giving birth to that child and having feelings of hate for him/her? even though this probably contradicts everythign i sed earlier about deciding whether or not a human gets to live... this is just how i think...

god im such a hypocrite -.-;;

[Griffith]

i guess i'll take the easy way out and say situational abortions.

*hypothetically*

if you and ur bf are screwing around (no pun intended >.>) and u end up pregnant what gives u the right to decide the life of another human being? even if that human being would be your child u cant just decide his/her life for him/her. what makes abortio any different from murdering your (for instance) 8 year old child? someone else is paying for a mistake you made. i dont want to look at the going-to-be-born child as a consequence but i dont find it ok to just kill him/her just b/c he/she was unintentional.

but if you were raped thats a different situtation. different situations call for different measures. u didnt have control of the situation and the only way u could prevent a rape is most probably carrying a gun around with you to scare them off o.O or turn back time and not walk down that particular alley or something like that. i'm not sure where u guys are living but here in maryland o.O we are NOT allowed to walk anywhere in public with a gun and we, humans in general, cannot turn back time. can you imagine having to carry the child of a man who raped you? can you imagine giving birth to that child and having feelings of hate for him/her? even though this probably contradicts everythign i sed earlier about deciding whether or not a human gets to live... this is just how i think...

god im such a hypocrite -.-;;


First off, an unborn fetus is not a "human being", and an abortion of an unborn fetus is obviously not anywhere NEAR the same thing as murdering your 8 year old child, give me a break. We don't have funerals because sperm failed to reach the egg to make what COULD of been a child, and guys don't wear black in mourning every time they wank.

Let's say you take precautionary measures like wearing a condom. You have no intention of having a child. The condom breaks. Is this in your control? No, it's not. "Don't have sex then", you say. I have control of that, right?

Okay then, don't go outside and keep your doors locked, then you won't get raped.

[uranai]

Repliying to Yakamashi...

What you said sounded as if having the child was the punishment for those who were "irresponsible", so if the situation was out of their control, it is fine to do abortions?

There is nothing good about having a child when you are like 16, nor for the parents , nor for the child ITself. There are lifes way worse than death.

[Yakamashi]

First off, an unborn fetus is not a "human being", and an abortion of an unborn fetus is obviously not anywhere NEAR the same thing as murdering your 8 year old child, give me a break. We don't have funerals because sperm failed to reach the egg to make what COULD of been a child, and guys don't wear black in mourning every time they wank.

Let's say you take precautionary measures like wearing a condom. You have no intention of having a child. The condom breaks. Is this in your control? No, it's not. "Don't have sex then", you say. I have control of that, right?

Okay then, don't go outside and keep your doors locked, then you won't get raped.

getting raped doesnt happen that often that u shud keep yourself away from society. rape victims can go out in public and not be scared of every single man that approaches them.

and why did u bring up the sperm failing to reach the egg? if the woman's pregnant the sperm reached the egg. the sperm failing to reach the egg and the sperm actually impregnating the egg are 2 different things, polar opposites.

and whats this about guys jacking off? please tell me what that has to do with abortion, if there is a connection at all.

an unborn fetus is alive. it has a heart beat. in fact the heart is one of the first organs to form as it is what keeps the fetus alive. or does a heart beat not constitute it being alive?

yes, condomns do break. if the condomn does break however there is still a slim chance that that person will get pregnant. yes i do hope that you can hold your horny-ness to some extent.

edit:

@ uranai: ^^;; i didnt mean to sound that way. i see it as that they're just killing the child b/c the child would be an incovenience to have around. i dont see how thats fair, to kill a child just b/c u didnt feel like like taking care of it and not give it a chance to live.

[Griffith]

getting raped doesnt happen that often that u shud keep yourself away from society. rape victims can go out in public and not be scared of every single man that approaches them.

You're obviously missing my point. I said that a condom breaking is not a situation that is under your control, just as you mentioned 'being raped' as a situation not under your control. And since you are so knowledgeable about rape, 683,000 women over 18 are raped every year in the United States alone. This translates to 1.3 rapes per minute. (http://www.familiesincrisis.net/sexual_assault_statistics.html)
"Rape victims can go out in public and not be scared of every single man that approaches them." - This sentence makes no sense.

and why did u bring up the sperm failing to reach the egg? if the woman's pregnant the sperm reached the egg. the sperm failing to reach the egg and the sperm actually impregnating the egg are 2 different things, polar opposites.

and whats this about guys jacking off? please tell me what that has to do with abortion, if there is a connection at all.

an unborn fetus is alive. it has a heart beat. in fact the heart is one of the first organs to form as it is what keeps the fetus alive. or does a heart beat not constitute it being alive?

Alright, I was hoping you would be able to piece it together yourself, but I will do it for you. An unborn fetus is alive. Okay, so is sperm. Do we mourn the DEATH OF SPERM? Cancer tumours are alive. Eggs are alive. Is there a death every time you have your period? The point is whether or not a fetus is a HUMAN BEING, which it is NOT. A fetus does not breathe, it does not have a moral status, it cannot feel pain, it cannot think, it does not know it exists. There is not even a HINT of primitive neurological activity until at least the 22nd week of pregnancy.

yes, condomns do break. if the condomn does break however there is still a slim chance that that person will get pregnant. yes i do hope that you can hold your horny-ness to some extent.

I really have no idea what point you're trying to push across with this statement, but yes -- condoms break more often than you may imagine, and there is a slim chance that the person may get pregnant. Did they take all the proper precautions? Yes, they did. The only form of contraception with a 100% success rate is abstinence. Maybe you want to practice that for the rest of your life, but I unfortunately do not - sorry, I forgot the part where "normal" became "horny".

[thericeeater]

i am prolife
and if i stated my reasons itd be the same as every other prolife
but the fact is
no matter what happend.
it happened so you have to go wit the natural flow of things..
if you dont its like your trying to play GOd by stopping it.
its a life... i odnt really see how anyone could oppose
the simple fact of it...
its kidn of sad really.

edit:
sorry to those who got mad.
i meant it that what happened happened, and yes it was horrible
and shouldnt have happened. but you should move on... sigh.
i dont really know from experience or anything and im sure its hard
but i know you would have to, to get over it.

if that made sense.

[pheonixfire]

rape, w/e
it happened so you have to go wit the natural flow of things..

That sounds a little harsh there, doesn't it. During the course of high school alone i have had at least 5 friends raped. I have seen the damage that such things can do, and until you have to look down at your friends arm and see freshly spilt trickles of blood cascade down onto the dirty floor, then don't speak of such things. Or better yet, unless you personally know how it feels, don't dare speak so lightly. I truely hope that you will never have to know how it feels, wiether it be personally or thru observant eyes. Even just being the shoulder to cry on is enough to change you.

[thericeeater]

@pheonix
oh.
im sorry.
i didnt mean it in a unfeeling way
:(
rape is a very bad thing,
but all i meant was life should prevail over that

[Griffith]

but the fact is no matter what happend. rape, w/e
it happened so you have to go wit the natural flow of things..


Rape is HARDLY natural. Maybe you should stop to think twice about what the **** you're saying. The nerve of some people.

[pheonixfire]

@pheonix
oh.
im sorry.
i didnt mean it in a unfeeling way
:(
rape is a very bad thing,
but all i meant was life should prevail over that

Its just that maybe growing up with the types of ppl i did, i have seen a lot. And I know that when a lot of ppl who don't want kids get kids, things are sometimes not so pretty. Its a sad reality. Just cuz someone is choosing to bear a child does not mean it will cared for, loved, nourished, protected.

[Ladymercury]

Well in response that life should prevail over rape...

Do you mean that the woman should have the child? Because, I wouldn't want to give birth to a child that would constantly remind me of the man that brutally assulted me.

[yum yum]

life should prevail over that
I agree, it SHOULD, but that is not the reality. People aren't perfect, not everyone can reach that ideal, not everyone is capable and strong enough to deal with both the traumas of rape and the stress of properly carrying out that pregnancy to full term. For any woman who is able to, I will highly respect.

And to reiterate what some others have already said, rape is not always something one can control. I've read of some cases where rapists have actually broken into a woman's home. Of course, a woman can take self defense, secure the door locks, bar the windows and etc...but how realistic is it to be that cautious all the time? Sometimes rape occurs in the safest neighborhoods. To anticipate something so terrible all the time is not sane.

It does anger me that there are people who take abortions for granted. I've heard of girls who've had abortions 4 times or more in their life. But when we take away the option to abort, we're not just taking it away from those few irresponsible people, but from everybody, which includes people who have legit reasons for having an abortion. Yes, there can be legit reasons because the world is not black and white. Right and wrong is not always so clear cut. There will always be special circumstances where abortion may be the best choice.

[Griffith]

Yes there are legit reasons because the world is not black and white. Right and wrong is not always so clear cut.

Well said my friend, well said.

[Forefall]

This issue I have no side on, because no matter which answer I give, I'll have someone mad at me, so I'll say this much... If you're throwing your sexuality around and happen to get pregnant, I do not feel sorry for you, and you shouldn't eliminate a human life for that cause. But. If it's an extreme case such as rape or the chance of the mother dying, the circumstances of the conception outweigh the morality of the situation.

Like, say ... if I were to get someone pregnant, and that person would die upon childbirth, there is no way in hell I would let it happen. I don't believe that the value of the life of a child is any less than the life of an adult, so it would be more of a selfish reason for myself.

I just can't imagine how anyone could so easily throw a life away, though... Maybe that's just the Christian in me speaking.

"You have to love someone more than yourself..."

[Tifdevil666]

ehh. i dont think a woman should have to go through pregnancy basically as what seems to be a "punishment" (if they dont want the baby at all). you shouldnt have to go through 9 month of carrying a baby, then have the baby. just because you decided to have sex =/ even if you say "oh you could give the baby up for adoption later on" that doesnt matter....the girl still had to carry the baby for 9 months and all.
and i cant say im all totally for it though. i just think there should be limits on it and stuff.
me..i dont know anyone that has actually had an abortion (or atleast any that i can think of). i have 3 friends between ages 17 and 18 that are pregnant..and their all having the baby. and i have 3 other friends who are now like...20. who got pregnant when they were in their teens, and all had their baby ;o

so for some woman maybe they wouldnt mind, and will have the baby. some just dont want one, and shouldnt have to go through all that. basically as a "punishment" or "reality check" for those who have 'unprotected/no birth control pill' sex ,_,

but hey thats just my opinion ._,

[Ladymercury]

Today's mentality makes it easy for a teenaged girl to be pregnant. Why worry about that baby when there's the mother to take care of that child while you return to school as if nothing happened and hang out on Friday nights as if you don't have a responbility in the world?

[Griffith]

Today's mentality makes it easy for a teenaged girl to be pregnant. Why worry about that baby when there's the mother to take care of that child while you return to school as if nothing happened and hang out on Friday nights as if you don't have a responbility in the world?

Agreed, it's a terrible mindset this generation has adopted.

[Forefall]

Today's mentality makes it easy for a teenaged girl to be pregnant. Why worry about that baby when there's the mother to take care of that child while you return to school as if nothing happened and hang out on Friday nights as if you don't have a responbility in the world?

Very well said, and a sad statement about the current state this world is in.

[pheonixfire]

Today's mentality makes it easy for a teenaged girl to be pregnant. Why worry about that baby when there's the mother to take care of that child while you return to school as if nothing happened and hang out on Friday nights as if you don't have a responbility in the world?

Yea, unfortunately that is the how a lot of ppl are. I also agree that its not right for ppl to be irresponsibly having unprotected sex all over the place and to use abortions as their primary means of "birth control", but i don't too many ppl do that...but i guess i could be wrong on that matter.

[Ladymercury]

It really hurts both sides, honestly, it does. That child will grow up to have no respect for its birth mother.

But it doesn't help it that our schools today avoid sex education. I know that my class was never taugh sex education. Also doesn't help that on every station you find some form of sex glamourized.

[aznxenocide]

my friend got pregnant. she's 17 or 18 (i forget). she had the baby and totally loves it (not sure what gender the baby is...). she dropped out of school and works at target, while her mom home schools her and they take care of the baby together. you can't say that the child won't have any respect for her. you also can't say that she didn't know what she was doing.

[Ladymercury]

What I mean is that if the mother lands the child in the grandmother's lap to be raised instead of taking the responsibilities of being a mother.

[MommyRogers]

So we're back to abortion again, are we. As usual, this brings about a lot of yammering about "a woman's right to choose". What this really is, is a thinly veiled avoidance of responsibility. We, as a society, have become used to being selfish. More so now, than at any other time in history. If you look at the ads on the tv, you will see a trend towards the idolization of the self. Morality and responsibility are no longer quite the part of our culture they once were.

I'm a woman, I've carried and successfully birthed two children. I've felt their flutters of movement under my skin. These kids were planned and hoped for. Why are people trying to tell me they weren't really babies until they hit a magical number of cells? It is simply justification. A woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to be. If she tells herself "it's not really a baby, yet" then it isn't murder, is it? Well - I've family who've miscarried, multiple times. Are you going to walk up to this woman and say "Suck it up, it wasn't even a baby yet . . ."? She grieves because she lost a child, not a lump of cells. I've known a woman who had an abortion. She was having sex as a teen and wasn't ready to be a mom. Almost 20 years later, she looks at the face of her three children and mourns that lost child. Would the baby have been a boy or a girl? Would her eyes have been blue? Would his hair have been brown? I've a friend who recently had a D&C because of an ectopic pregnancy. It would have killed her to carry. So she lives now - but mourns a child. Not a lump of cells, a child.

In California you can go to jail for breaking a condor egg. They're protected, you know. It isn't a condor yet, but will be. People will recognize this about an endanged/protected species - but they won't consider it for a human child. Have you ever thought about why?

It comes down to the "me, me, me" philosophy. Men have it easier because they just skip out and disappear when they don't want to deal with the results. Women, have to be harder. They say "it's just a lump of cells" and commit infanticide. For what reason? It wasn't convenient. They didn't want the responsibility. "I wasn't ready to be a mom yet" . . . yet. If leaving the "cells" alone will make you a mom, doesn't it stand to reason that destroying those cells is murdering a child? These thought processes are what leads to "dumpster babies". And remember than mom in Texas some years back? Her kids were in the way of her relationship - so she stuck them in a car, and pushed the car in a lake. Come on people, why are we surprised at this? Consider it retroactive abortion - after all, doesn't she have "the right to choose"?

So the yammering will continue - but people, call it what it is. Self Interest. Selfishness. Murder. Don't try to cover it up and deny responsibility. I don't look down on the friend who had the D&C, I'd rather have her around and alive. I don't look down on my friend who had the abortion - she is my friend (and is also one of the first to tell you that yes, it is murder). Abortion happens. Sometimes it is necessary - but don't try to tell me that it should be a "right".

*steps off soapbox*

[Griffith]

And remember than mom in Texas some years back? Her kids were in the way of her relationship - so she stuck them in a car, and pushed the car in a lake. Come on people, why are we surprised at this? Consider it retroactive abortion - after all, doesn't she have "the right to choose"?

You are obviously overexagerrating this point to the instance where it no longer has a logical place in this argument.

I don't look down on my friend who had the abortion - she is my friend (and is also one of the first to tell you that yes, it is murder).

Murder? So I guess your friend who had the miscarriage committed manslaughter.

Abortion happens. Sometimes it is necessary - but don't try to tell me that it should be a "right".


You're right. It happens, and sometimes it is necessary - that is why a choice should exist.

[MommyRogers]

You are obviously overexagerrating this point to the instance where it no longer has a logical place in this argument.
Why not? Can you look 100 years into the future of a world that places so little worth on a child's life, and tell me this will not happen? Consider it passionate speculation based on logical progression.


Murder? So I guess your friend who had the miscarriage committed manslaughter.

Technically, that would be correct. Your reason for stating this would be what exactly? Would this be something you would be comfortable saying to her face, I wonder . . . (and if you carefully re-read, you would note she is family.)


You're right. It happens, and sometimes it is necessary - that is why a choice should exist.

A choice for medical reasons I could support. A choice as birth control? That is not a right.

[Griffith]

Why not? Can you look 100 years into the future of a world that places so little worth on a child's life, and tell me this will not happen? Consider it passionate speculation based on logical progression.

Putting your kids in a car and drowning them is not the same as having an abortion. I'm not even going to bother discussing this point anymore.


Technically, that would be correct. Your reason for stating this would be what exactly? Would this be something you would be comfortable saying to her face, I wonder . . . (and if you carefully re-read, you would note she is family.)

My reason for stating this is to show you how ridiculous it is using terms like 'murder' to describe the abortion of an undeveloped fetus that has no self-awareness of its existence, no primitive cognitive functions, and feels no pain. As you can see, calling a miscarriage manslaughter is equally ridiculous. Miss, if you are comfortable acknowledging that your friend 'technically' murdered her child, I see no reason why you should be discomforted with the technical manslaughter. And allow me to remind you that I did not bring those two inviduals into this discussion, you did - so don't bring any of that guilt crap in here because it's obvious there was no personal disrespect intended.


A choice for medical reasons I could support. A choice as birth control? That is not a right.

I agree that abortion is not a form of "birth control". For someone to not take proper precautions and use contraceptives every time they had sex and to just have an abortion after would be ghastly, and that is not what I'm supporting here. Regardless of the fact that fetuses are not human beings, there is still no doubt that an emotional attachment should be developed with them - and is the topic of abortion dulling this generation's perspective on the value of a fetus? Yes, it is. Whether we like it or not, many youths are thinking to themselves that "oh well, at least I can get an abortion".

But regardless of that fact, I still believe in a choice. Because without legalized abortions, there comes misinformation, illegal abortions, and the lack of a CHOICE. It's a last resort, and a very situational one at that. But it still is a choice, and that's why it is important - if abortions were illegal, that choice would be gone, regardless of whether the situation was right or wrong.

[Babbo]

how is a miscarriage in anyway considered manslaughter? there's almost no way to keep that from happening if it's gonna...abortion on the other hand requires a concious decision to carry it out <_<

[MommyRogers]

Putting your kids in a car and drowning them is not the same as having an abortion. I'm not even going to bother discussing this point anymore.

I disagree. And if you wish to drop this point, go ahead.


My reason for stating this is to show you how ridiculous it is using terms like 'murder' to describe the abortion of an undeveloped fetus that has no self-awareness of its existence, no primitive cognitive functions, and feels no pain. As you can see, calling a miscarriage manslaughter is equally ridiculous. Miss, if you are comfortable acknowledging that your friend 'technically' murdered her child, I see no reason why you should be discomforted with the technical manslaughter. And allow me to remind you that I did not bring those two inviduals into this discussion, you did - so don't bring any of that guilt crap in here because it's obvious there was no personal disrespect intended.

Actually, it wasn't obvious. It is rather close since it was my niece or nephew who was lost - and we are still in process of grieving. Which is perhaps another reason why I am so passionate upon this point. When is a child, a child? Can you pinpoint that exact moment? I have felt movement in my womb when a pro-choicer would tell me I am merely hosting a parasitic lump of cells. Why should development be the marker? Today I held Kyla for the first time - child of a friend. She is 6 months old. She hasn't developed language yet, or even higher cognitive function. She is teething, so she drools a lot. She loves peekaboo. In a few months she will be attempting to crawl (once her gross motor functions develop enough). Not long after that she will be trying to talk. Babbling at first, then mimicking of sounds. How much time is between her and that point that some people consider her to be a lump of cells? When exactly did she become a child?



I agree that abortion is not a form of "birth control". For someone to not take proper precautions and use contraceptives every time they had sex and to just have an abortion after would be ghastly, and that is not what I'm supporting here. Regardless of the fact that fetuses are not human beings, there is still no doubt that an emotional attachment should be developed with them - and is the topic of abortion dulling this generation's perspective on the value of a fetus? Yes, it is. Whether we like it or not, many youths are thinking to themselves that "oh well, at least I can get an abortion".

This is the very point I disagree with you on - a child, is a child. Abortion, on demand or not - does not change this. And how else would you define the termination of a child's life, than murder? Yes, it is an emotionally charged term. But it is an emotionally charged situation.

But regardless of that fact, I still believe in a choice. Because without legalized abortions, there comes misinformation, illegal abortions, and the lack of a CHOICE. It's a last resort, and a very situational one at that. But it still is a choice, and that's why it is important - if abortions were illegal, that choice would be gone, regardless of whether the situation was right or wrong.

I'm not saying abortions should be illegal, but definitely not on demand. Personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere, and there has been a decided lack for some time now. There's a theory that correlates the increase in the need for abortion to the availability thereof - but I'll have to do some looking to find that study again.

Edit:

how is a miscarriage in anyway considered manslaughter? there's almost no way to keep that from happening if it's gonna...abortion on the other hand requires a concious decision to carry it out <_<

Thanks for pointing that out - it's a point of grief so I don't think too clearly about it.

[Yoshitsune]

Debates are fun because they allow a person to see both sides of the spectrum.
If this were a real debate, both of you would play devil's advocate and try to back the opposite sides of the argument, your thoughts might not change, but it would provide less tension.

We should have a death penalty thread...

[Griffith]

This whole discussion about when a child is a child is leading back to the definition of life, and I don't want this thread to get repetitious. "Why should development be a marker?", you ask. If you're telling me that stopping the development of a fetus that does not feel pain or have any cognitive function is the same thing as slitting the throat of a baby like a 6 month old Kyla, then your point of view is truly skewed beyond belief.

I agree that personal responsibility must not be neglected, but a privilege should not be taken away from those who actually need it just because some abuse it.

[MommyRogers]

This whole discussion about when a child is a child is leading back to the definition of life, and I don't want this thread to get repetitious. "Why should development be a marker?", you ask. If you're telling me that stopping the development of a fetus that does not feel pain or have any cognitive function is the same thing as slitting the throat of a baby like a 6 month old Kyla, then your point of view is truly skewed beyond belief.



Amusing that - because yes, I do believe very firmly that they are one and the same. Because of that I believe that I could apply the above statement to yourself.

The differences in development are marked only by months. So. One is cuddly and can coo and blow bubbles, and one cannot be seen without aid of ultrasound. Time is the only dividing factor. Just like time is the factor between where Kyla is and where my children are now. And where my children are now, to where you are. We grow, we develop, we change. A child in it's formative stages is no less a child, no less a human being than are you.

Er, you seem to be stuck on the point of the baby not feeling pain . . . why is that? I am not a person who researches abortion and when the children can or can't feel pain. It doesn't matter to me when a child can feel pain - only that they exist. And should not be terminated because they exist.

That is why I'm in this thread. Not because I enjoy an argument, because I really don't. But I am am passionate about children. It is bad enough that they are being terminated, murdered, in the name of convenience, but to have them denied their humanity - it breaks my heart.

[Katsuki]

Fetuses do feel pain... my mom's an Obgyn and she mentions a lot of things... like how early nerves start to develop... I can't tell people any different, but I doubt I would be able to destroy something that's half of me...well.. my last post here... most of the stuff's just being repeated anyway...

[Babbo]

This whole discussion about when a child is a child is leading back to the definition of life, and I don't want this thread to get repetitious. "Why should development be a marker?", you ask. If you're telling me that stopping the development of a fetus that does not feel pain or have any cognitive function is the same thing as slitting the throat of a baby like a 6 month old Kyla, then your point of view is truly skewed beyond belief.

I agree that personal responsibility must not be neglected, but a privilege should not be taken away from those who actually need it just because some abuse it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

there ya go ;D

suprisingly that's pretty much the one babbo learned in bio <_<isn't the formal scientific definition of life good enough for you? The law says that an unborn child is not alive yet ; common sense says otherwise <_<

[Ramza]

i dont even understand whats the poll asking...pro choice...pro life? huh?
what are we debating on :/

[Divine Truth]

i dont even understand whats the poll asking...pro choice...pro life? huh?
what are we debating on :/
the topic is abortion, Ramza. Are you for abortion/at least in favor of abortion being available (pro choice) or against it (pro life).
isn't the formal scientific definition of life good enough for you? The law says that an unborn child is not alive yet ; common sense says otherwise <_<
Indeed, but since when has common sense been a commonly used trait. Especially by law makers :rolleyes: -__-

[cravenight]

I'm not sure if ramza is kinding or not. Eh, there are times that common sense is totally wrong though, just what believe to be true and the best option, may not be.

[Babbo]

I'm not sure if ramza is kinding or not. Eh, there are times that common sense is totally wrong though, just what believe to be true and the best option, may not be.whether or not an ubron child is alive or not is not an option, it's a simple fact <_<

[Ramza]

i think abortion shouldnt be allow...

its true that it wont be the girls fault if she gets pregnant due to rape...unless she goes to dark areas...
but i believe rape doesnt occur a lot during each day...and rape doesnt always get the girl pregnant...and abortion can probably take care of few over population problems

but then...wouldnt it be easier if the fools wont get involve with sexual relationships if they arent ready for the risks...
and people dont seem to understand the term "safe sex"...get a condom for god's sake...
and for those that actually uses items such as condoms...it doesnt garentee 100% safe from pregnancy..."safe sex" the word safe is such a powerful word...too powerful i say...no sex is ever safe...people just cant understand when people say...THINK AHEAD...but at the end...its too late for them...when they actually starts to think what to do with the baby...

and at the end their solution is usually ABORTION...such simple minded fools...abortion is one of the main reasons why people have sex in the first place...they believe that if they have this...they dont have to worry about pregnancy...same goes to condoms and other safe sex devices...

the term abortion just encourage people to have sex....so why not remove it in the first place to prevent such stupid thoughts of being safe from pregnancy...and actually force the fools to THINK AHEAD before getting involve with sexual relationships

i say abortion should only applied to those that got raped...

[Griffith]

Fetuses do not start feeling pain until their 22nd week of development, as long as the law gives at least a 2 week safety barrier as a safety precaution, there is no problem.

[epicbard]

Fetuses do not start feeling pain until their 22nd week of development, as long as the law gives at least a 2 week safety barrier as a safety precaution, there is no problem.does that really matter?

[pheonixfire]

Well i just try to think in terms of reality. Weither or not you are for it or against it, the simple matter is that ppl will do whatever it is that they want to do. If you take away the "right" or ability to have a legal abortion, it doesn't mean that ppl aren't gonna have them anyway. What you will end up with is a bunch of females (and undoubtly the highest amount being teen girls) trying to have backdoor abortions like they did in the seventies.

These sorts of things can not only endanger the life of the mother, but also are not guranteed to work. "Yey! Well they shouldn't be killing babies anyway." I'm sure some of you will say at the last statement, but what does that really mean? It means that you will have a lot of deformed/underdevelooped/mentally impaired babies as a result of failed abortions. Will this happen EVERY time? No, I'm sure it won't. I have known girls in high school who have delebrately used alchohol and drugs during pregnancies, just trying ot have a misscarriage. Once again, not safe.

And yes, sometimes ppl are irresponsable with sex. But a lot of times these "irresponsable" ppl are also uninformed about it. There are some places where they do not teach "safe sex", merely just that abstinence is the only way. True, it IS pretty much the only 100% way to prevent pregnancies (I am saying "pretty much" cuz there is also rape, and other such sexual activities that ARE NOT sex, but still carry a very small chace of pregnancy-i.e dry humping [depending on how much clothes they are wearing and how close they, uh...get to each other...i suppose] and the like).

And last but not least, what about the girls who are cases of child abuse? A large number of teen girls who have sex do so as a way to make themselves feel better. They often have low self esteem and confuse sex with acceptance. I agree not the best idea, but things like this happen.

So lets say, one of these girls get pregnant. There are somethings that could possibly happen.

A) the girls father gets mad and beats her. Badly.

B) the girls father makes her keep it, and then the kid gets subjected to the same lifestyle the mother went thru, either at the hands of the kids grandfather or by the mother herself (since abuse cases are likely to abuse others as well...likely but not always tho)

Etc....

There are some other better possible outcomes, but i wanted to focus on these two. Remember its not always a case of absolute good and absolute bad, absolute one way and absolute another. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to go to such drastic measures, but we are far from perfect. Sometimes what we think may be "right" can make things much worse. Try to look past the immediate and see what else could happen.

edit~i do not take credit for the "everything isn't so black and white type statement. Another person put that in earlier and i liked it. Ditto on the perfect world statement. ^____^

[Griffith]

does that really matter?

I posted that because people were saying that they did.

[Tifdevil666]

its true that it wont be the girls fault if she gets pregnant due to rape...unless she goes to dark areas...
but i believe rape doesnt occur a lot during each day
=/ .. it does occur, maybe not a super total lot each day..but there are:
1.3 rapes per minute.
78 rapes per hour.
1871 rapes per day.
56,916 per month.
683,000 per year
....and rape doesnt always get the girl pregnant...and abortion can probably take care of few over population problems
and yeah it doesnt always ;x, there are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States each year ,_, and about half of them keep the baby ;o


and not just "fools" have abortions =/
all different kinds of ppl can have them, sure some might be teenagers who think they're not ready to be mothers. some are actually married women. some are women who already have children =/

people can have different reasons ,_, you shouldnt call them all "fools"

[MommyRogers]

I posted that because people were saying that they did.

You keep bringing up the pain issue - it seems to have some importance to you, for some reason.

As I recall from biology (and bear with me here, college is some years past) pain receptors are in place at 7 weeks. I believe there is some argument as to whether or not they are active at that stage. As I remember, there was no conclusive proof of when a child actually starts feeling pain.

But may I ask, why would this concern you when by your own admission you would not consider a child at this age to be human?

[Yoshitsune]

It can be said that a fetus is a type of human, but it can also be said that having an abortion isn't necessarily murder since the word murder refers to the killing of a human being. But then, murder has a bad connotation to it, as if it's done in malice. An abortion, by definition, is a canceling of something from being completed. But what is trying to be completed, and into what? A fetus into a human, or a human fetus into a baby out of the womb? Murder and abortion don't necessarily mean the same thing, unless you abort someone's life, but when you say it, you don't say "She aborted her baby", you say "She aborted her pregnancy", meaning she stopped the process that was going on in her body, the baby (or organism being created in her womb) isn't mentioned because it's what's being done instead of what is being created. In fact, society has misused the word "baby", if you check a dictionary, it means both an infant and a fetus. So even the definitions are skewed. A fetus is alive, but is it a human or is it just an organism that is made up of cells? A fetus is considered unborn because it hasn't emerged from a woman, but is it alive?

Just some things to think about

[MommyRogers]

It can be said that a fetus is a type of human, but it can also be said that having an abortion isn't necessarily murder since the word murder refers to the killing of a human being. But then, murder has a bad connotation to it, as if it's done in malice. An abortion, by definition, is a canceling of something from being completed. But what is trying to be completed, and into what? A fetus into a human, or a human fetus into a baby out of the womb? Murder and abortion don't necessarily mean the same thing, unless you abort someone's life, but when you say it, you don't say "She aborted her baby", you say "She aborted her pregnancy", meaning she stopped the process that was going on in her body, the baby (or organism being created in her womb) isn't mentioned because it's what's being done instead of what is being created. In fact, society has misused the word "baby", if you check a dictionary, it means both an infant and a fetus. So even the definitions are skewed. A fetus is alive, but is it a human or is it just an organism that is made up of cells? A fetus is considered unborn because it hasn't emerged from a woman, but is it alive?

Just some things to think about

A fetus cannot become anything other than a baby. A baby becomes a child, a child becomes an adult. I am surrounded by children, daily. As I mentioned to Griffin, I held a 6 month old named Kyla on Sunday. All that separates her from a baby that is to be aborted, is time. A fetus is a developing child. Just the earliest stage, and yet, because the fetus isn't visible it is discriminated against on that basis.

What do you see when you look at a child? Do you see potential? Or wasted resources? I see a life that was allowed to continue, filled with possibility. I have a heart for children. I simply can't see how people could be so clinically detatched about new life. It's as if something in them has died . . .

Another something to think about.

[Yoshitsune]

I guess some people don't attribute having an abortion to mudering a human being because to them, it's taking up space in their body and being a burden to them. I think the real issue here is getting an unwanted pregnancy, and to that, there are much more many issues that need to be addressed.

[Babbo]

well if people actually acknowledged abrotioin as killing a human being babbo doen'st think that they'd have the same problem....ask anyone if they'd kill another person and they blanch at the prostpect of anyone who'd even cnsider killing another person; but with an unborn child they've grown up thinking that it isn't, simply because it's not walking and talking <_<

Babbo totally agrees that people have a hard time with pregnancies and that they are a very complicated situation, but in the end you're killing another human being and in civilized societies the only case where an everage person will consider killing another person is in an abortion...if it were actually looked on as the murder it really is babbo doesn't hink that we'd have nearly the same problems...as it were people who continue to perpetuate this idea making for reasons good and bad and it's because of this that when women think theyhave no other option that they jump to poor choices...if they actually knew what they were doing (killing another human being) they would certainly not do anything stupid <_<

[MommyRogers]

I guess some people don't attribute having an abortion to mudering a human being because to them, it's taking up space in their body and being a burden to them. I think the real issue here is getting an unwanted pregnancy, and to that, there are much more many issues that need to be addressed.

True, but how they are addressed depends on how you respond to my initial point.

If a fetus is a child (I put forth an unequivocal "yes"), then how do the child's rights factor in?

If you take the easy road, the one most people choose, you deny the child it's humanity and say "we can do what we want".

So - how do you respond?

example: abortion on demand
if you believe the child isn't really human, then it is a simple and logical choice to get out of an unwanted situation
if you belive that the child is a human being, a baby, then how do you justify taking a life on the grounds of convenience?

What you believe will shape your answer.

[uranai]

Fetuses do not start feeling pain until their 22nd week of development, as long as the law gives at least a 2 week safety barrier as a safety precaution, there is no problem.

In the first months, human fetuses are no different than most animals, mammals or not.

[MommyRogers]

In the first months, human fetuses are no different than most animals, mammals or not.

But they won't become other animals, mammals or not. They will become children.

Uranai, you have your gender down as male. Suppose your wife/girlfriend/signifigant female other told you she was pregnant. Would you wonder if it was going to be a rabbit or a whale? Silly question, really. But it is to illustrate a point - unformed or not, it is a baby. It will not become anything else. Would you discriminate based on developmental level? Some people do, you know, and for more than just abortion. They are also the ones who would euthanize the disabled. Another discussion for another day, but the warning remains: therein lies a slippery slope.

[Forefall]

In the first months, human fetuses are no different than most animals, mammals or not.

How can people be so unsensitive...

[Tifdevil666]

well if people actually acknowledged abrotioin as killing a human being babbo doen'st think that they'd have the same problem....ask anyone if they'd kill another person and they blanch at the prostpect of anyone who'd even cnsider killing another person; but with an unborn child they've grown up thinking that it isn't, simply because it's not walking and talking <_<

Babbo totally agrees that people have a hard time with pregnancies and that they are a very complicated situation, but in the end you're killing another human being and in civilized societies the only case where an everage person will consider killing another person is in an abortion...if it were actually looked on as the murder it really is babbo doesn't hink that we'd have nearly the same problems...as it were people who continue to perpetuate this idea making for reasons good and bad and it's because of this that when women think theyhave no other option that they jump to poor choices...if they actually knew what they were doing (killing another human being) they would certainly not do anything stupid <_<
haha if i was going to have an abortion [which im not lol ;o] and people kept saying i was murduring it or w/e i'd prolly just end accepting that and say "okay i murdured a unborn baby then" ,_, if its what you really want/think you should do. you'd accept the consequences/name calling ,_,

everyone has their own opinions on it. its not black or white, circumstances vary w/ people ;/

[Babbo]

haha if i was going to have an abortion [which im not lol ;o] and people kept saying i was murduring it or w/e i'd prolly just end accepting that and say "okay i murdured a unborn baby then" ,_, if its what you really want/think you should do. you'd accept the consequences/name calling ,_,

everyone has their own opinions on it. its not black or white, circumstances vary w/ people ;/yeah but you say that now because you've grown up ina society that actually belives that it's merely an unborn child; if you were brought up in a scoiety that actually acknowledged it as the murder it is most likely wouldn't think that way <_<

and what's this black and white crap? even the catholic church allows abortion in the case of danger to the mother , but other than that, killing another human being for any reason is unacceptable <_<

[Tifdevil666]

yeah but you say that now because you've grown up ina society that actually belives that it's merely an unborn child; if you were brought up in a scoiety that actually acknowledged it as the murder it is most likely wouldn't think that way <_<

and what's this black and white crap? even the catholic church allows abortion in the case of danger to the mother , but other than that, killing another human being for any reason is unacceptable <_<
you dont know my society and what they believe o_0
most of my town and all is republican, many of the adults and all tend to be the same and tend to be against anything that they wouldnt consider "normal" or w/e...so i'd say some of the ppl in my society would be actually against abortions o_0 [ cant say all or most, because i dont know for sure]

and what if your not really religious o_0

alot of things in religion could be unacepptable ,_,

black and white meaning there can be circumstances, like ppl had said make it only allowed for rapes. like that'd even work =/ people dont/wont always even believe women who say they are raped ,_,

[Babbo]

you dont know my society and what they believe o_0
most of my town and all is republican, many of the adults and all tend to be the same and tend to be against anything that they wouldnt consider "normal" or w/e...so i'd say some of the ppl in my society would be actually against abortions o_0 [ cant say all or most, because i dont know for sure]

and what if your not really religious o_0

alot of things in religion could be unacepptable ,_,

black and white meaning there can be circumstances, like ppl had said make it only allowed for rapes. like that'd even work =/ people dont/wont always even believe women who say they are raped ,_,Babbo's talking about american society in general....anyways even in a heavily republcan/religious region there will always be some people that don't follow the same tend and the acception of abortion is a highly publicized thing ...and you don't need to be religous to think murder is wrong and currently the only thing that affects people opinion on wheter or not abortion is murder or not is wide acceptance that unbron children ar not necessarily human or even living <_<

[Tifdevil666]

Babbo's talking about american society in general....anyways even in a heavily republcan/religious region there will always be some people that don't follow the same tend and the acception of abortion is a highly publicized thing ...and you don't need to be religous to think murder is wrong and currently the only thing that affects people opinion on wheter or not abortion is murder or not is wide acceptance that unbron children ar not necessarily human or even living <_<
ahh okay. i thought you ment like the small society around me ;o
and i just said about the religious stuff cuz u mentioned catholic lol ,_,

[Babbo]

ahh okay. i thought you ment like the small society around me ;o
and i just said about the religious stuff cuz u mentioned catholic lol ,_,and the onlyr reason babbo mentioned it is cause some people seem to think some religous people won't allow it on any grounds <_<

[Ramza]

=/ .. it does occur, maybe not a super total lot each day..but there are:
1.3 rapes per minute.
78 rapes per hour.
1871 rapes per day.
56,916 per month.
683,000 per year

and yeah it doesnt always ;x, there are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States each year ,_, and about half of them keep the baby ;o


and not just "fools" have abortions =/
all different kinds of ppl can have them, sure some might be teenagers who think they're not ready to be mothers. some are actually married women. some are women who already have children =/

people can have different reasons ,_, you shouldnt call them all "fools"
well...well u proved me wrong :D

and it doesnt matter if they are married or not...if they are not ready to take the risk...they shouldnt be having sex in the first place...in other words they are still fools...
like i said...abortion just encourage people to have sex
there cant be any reasons why they shouldnt think ahead in the first place...

and no offence to the people who lives in US...but i think its pretty screwy in US...for example...allowing to carry guns...for protection against those who has guns...how ironic...

[Griffith]

First to MommyRogers, the pain issue is important to me because the fact that I support pro-choice does not label me as a heartless monster. I am not inhumane. After 22 weeks the fetus has developed enough to the point that abortions should not be performed, imo.

Ramza, I disagree that abortions encourage people to have sex. Sex is completely natural, and the fact that abortions are available aren't factors in the decision of whether or not to have sex. I do believe in safe sex, but it's not like we go to clubs and go "Abortions are legal, wanna ****?"

[Yoshitsune]

This thread is really annoying...
Why can't we just say a woman should have the right to choose. I mean, the organism is in her body and pretty much feeding off her like a tape worm. If she doens't want it there, she has it removed. If it happens to be a pre-human baby then, that's what happeens when they rush to things. But then, she could have been raped too. Do you want a raped woman to have some raper's baby?

[Babbo]

and no offence to the people who lives in US...but i think its pretty screwy in US...for example...allowing to carry guns...for protection against those who has guns...how ironic...what and you think that there's no in the US who thinks it's screwy?

[Ramza]

First to MommyRogers, the pain issue is important to me because the fact that I support pro-choice does not label me as a heartless monster. I am not inhumane. After 22 weeks the fetus has developed enough to the point that abortions should not be performed, imo.

Ramza, I disagree that abortions encourage people to have sex. Sex is completely natural, and the fact that abortions are available aren't factors in the decision of whether or not to have sex. I do believe in safe sex, but it's not like we go to clubs and go "Abortions are legal, wanna ****?"


ya i know that part...but abortion give people the feeling of being free from pregnancy...thus some people wont even bother thinking about pregnancy as long as there is abortion...

what and you think tha there's no in the US who thinks it's screwy?
i dont understand what u just typed...

This thread is really annoying...
Why can't we just say a woman should have the right to choose. I mean, the organism is in her body and pretty much feeding off her like a tape worm. If she doens't want it there, she has it removed. If it happens to be a pre-human baby then, that's what happeens when they rush to things. But then, she could have been raped too. Do you want a raped woman to have some raper's baby?
thats y i stated that only girls that got raped should be allowed to use abortion

[Yoshitsune]

Besides, don't you all think it's safer to have abortion clinics than to prevent women from seeking these place and instead seek the help of alley abortions?

[Ramza]

Besides, don't you all think it's safer to have abortion clinics than to prevent women from seeking these place and instead seek the help of alley abortions?

lol its still abortion no matter how u look at it

[Yoshitsune]

But you have to look at the big picture too, and the health of the person who's getting the abortion.

[Ramza]

But you have to look at the big picture too, and the health of the person who's getting the abortion.
when i said abortion shouldnt be allow...i mean the whole abortion...not just the clinic

[MommyRogers]

First to MommyRogers, the pain issue is important to me because the fact that I support pro-choice does not label me as a heartless monster. I am not inhumane. After 22 weeks the fetus has developed enough to the point that abortions should not be performed, imo.

Ramza, I disagree that abortions encourage people to have sex. Sex is completely natural, and the fact that abortions are available aren't factors in the decision of whether or not to have sex. I do believe in safe sex, but it's not like we go to clubs and go "Abortions are legal, wanna ****?"

To the latter point: you must admit that abortions remove consequences, and embarkation upon intimacy is no longer mitigated by those consequences. I do need to find that study.

I would not call you a heartless monster. Misinformed, brainwashed, perhaps. But not heartless. I couldn't find my book on fetal development (they give us one at the health unit when we get pregnant, so we can follow along) so I did end up searching for some information.

After 22 weeks you would not condone an abortion, is that correct? Let's break that down. 4 weeks in a month, that works out to 5 months 2 weeks. So, given that pregnancy lasts nine months, you are saying it is fine to abort almost 2/3 into a pregnancy? Let's see now

Day 1 - conception takes place.
7 days - tiny human implants in mother’s uterus.
10 days - mother’s menses stop.
18 days - heart begins to beat.
21 days - pumps own blood through separate closed circulatory system with own blood type.
28 days - eye, ear and respiratory system begin to form.
42 days - brain waves recorded, skeleton complete, reflexes present.
7 weeks - photo of thumbsucking.
8 weeks - all body systems present.
9 weeks - squints, swallows, moves tongue, makes fist.
11 weeks - spontaneous breathing movements, has fingernails, all body systems working.
12 weeks - weighs one ounce.
16 weeks - genital organs clearly differentiated, grasps with hands, swims, kicks, turns, somersaults, (still not felt by the mother.)
18 weeks - vocal cords work – can cry.
20 weeks - has hair on head, weighs one pound, 12 inches long.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/5783/fig17baby5mos9jz.jpg

There is some study that shows that infants feel pain earlier than 22 weeks - here at this link http://www.justthefacts.org/clar.asp it is under "foetal pain". (No graphic photos)

I think it is that people have the image of "a tiny blob of undifferentiated flesh". When the reality is so different.

[Griffith]

I do need to find that study.

I would not call you a heartless monster. Misinformed, brainwashed, perhaps.

Yes, you've mentioned that you need to find 'that study' more than once.

Misinformed and brainwashed? What an arrogant and pompous statement to make. I'm leaving this thread, it's getting repetitious and frankly, quite annoying.

[MommyRogers]

Yes, you've mentioned that you need to find 'that study' more than once.

Misinformed and brainwashed? What an arrogant and pompous statement to make. I'm leaving this thread, it's getting repetitious and frankly, quite annoying.

Before you do, would you answer one question? Why is it you never respond to my facts or my questions, and instead sidetrack and offer personal attack?

Edit: I would have at least thought that the scientific study on foetal pain would be of interest to you.

[Griffith]

Before you do, would you answer one question? Why is it you never respond to my facts or my questions, and instead sidetrack and offer personal attack?


On the contrary my dear, I have been responding to your facts and questions for perhaps 10 pages now. Noone has offered personal attack but yourself. Haave a nice day;)

[Ramza]

er...i feel as tho a flame war is going to start soon

[MommyRogers]

On the contrary my dear, I have been responding to your facts and questions for perhaps 10 pages now. Noone has offered personal attack but yourself. Haave a nice day;)

When did I offer personal attack?

[Babbo]

babbo thinks he took misinformed and brainwashed as an insult...of course it did turn out you were a bit misninformed on the idea of fetal pain and as far as babbo's concerned everyone is brianwashed about this subject to one degree or another <_<

[MommyRogers]

babbo thinks he took misinformed and brainwashed as an insult...of course it did turn out you were a bit misninformed on the idea of fetal pain and as far as babbo's concerned everyone is brianwashed about this subject to one degree or another <_<

At least you understand, Babbo.

Still, I didn't take offense when he started calling names. *shakes head*

[Griffith]

At least you understand, Babbo.

Still, I didn't take offense when he started calling names. *shakes head*

Woman, you are 38 years old, grow up. I didn't "call anyone names".

[MommyRogers]

Woman, you are 38 years old, grow up. I didn't "call anyone names".


Er, "pompous, arrogant"? Those are descriptors that are judgement upon a person's character.

Edit: And I'm 37 :D

[Babbo]

Woman, you are 38 years old, grow up. I didn't "call anyone names".d00d she just called you misinformed...wich you were...and brainwashed...which everyone is....get over it, cause right now the one who's pushing the limits is you <_<

both of you just let it rest >_<

[Griffith]

d00d she just called you misinformed...wich you were...and brainwashed...which everyone is....get over it, cause right now the one who's pushing the limits is you <_<

both of you just let it rest >_<

Babbo, I was not misinformed concerning fetal pain, though I did not mention that exactly when fetuses feel pain is still under dispute by many scientists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_pain

"Most scientists now believe that a fetus is able to feel physical pain [1] sometime during the pregnancy. The question of exactly when this ability develops is disputed. Some academics argue that it appears as early as seven weeks after conception. Others claim that pain cannot be felt until the third trimester of pregnancy."

"Nociceptors are present as early as seven weeks post-conception. The spinal column and the thalamus are functional at about thirteen weeks. However, the final necessary connections within the cerebral cortex are not developed until about the twenty-sixth week."

"Researchers who believe that a fetus can feel pain early, as soon as some of the necessary nerves are available, tend to have a pro-life stance. There is some concern that strong views on both sides of the abortion debate may be influencing the interpretation of research findings."

Anyway, I apologize if anyone was offended or I ruffled any feathers. Cya on other threads:)

Griffith

[Yoshitsune]

Thank you for that last sentence Griffith...
it's one of those issues that will never end....

[Babbo]

Babbo, I was not misinformed concerning fetal pain, though I did not mention that exactly when fetuses feel pain is still under dispute by many scientists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_pain

"Most scientists now believe that a fetus is able to feel physical pain [1] sometime during the pregnancy. The question of exactly when this ability develops is disputed. Some academics argue that it appears as early as seven weeks after conception. Others claim that pain cannot be felt until the third trimester of pregnancy."

"Nociceptors are present as early as seven weeks post-conception. The spinal column and the thalamus are functional at about thirteen weeks. However, the final necessary connections within the cerebral cortex are not developed until about the twenty-sixth week."

"Researchers who believe that a fetus can feel pain early, as soon as some of the necessary nerves are available, tend to have a pro-life stance. There is some concern that strong views on both sides of the abortion debate may be influencing the interpretation of research findings."

Anyway, I apologize if anyone was offended or I ruffled any feathers. Cya on other threads:)

Griffithon the other hand you blatantly waved aside one argument on the topic (or maybe didn't even know about it) and immeadeatly jumped to the idea of no abortion after 22 weeks...seeing as theere is no stable basis for that opinion babbo would call it misinformed <_<

[MommyRogers]

Babbo, I was not misinformed concerning fetal pain, though I did not mention that exactly when fetuses feel pain is still under dispute by many scientists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_pain

"Most scientists now believe that a fetus is able to feel physical pain [1] sometime during the pregnancy. The question of exactly when this ability develops is disputed. Some academics argue that it appears as early as seven weeks after conception. Others claim that pain cannot be felt until the third trimester of pregnancy."

"Nociceptors are present as early as seven weeks post-conception. The spinal column and the thalamus are functional at about thirteen weeks. However, the final necessary connections within the cerebral cortex are not developed until about the twenty-sixth week."

"Researchers who believe that a fetus can feel pain early, as soon as some of the necessary nerves are available, tend to have a pro-life stance. There is some concern that strong views on both sides of the abortion debate may be influencing the interpretation of research findings."

Anyway, I apologize if anyone was offended or I ruffled any feathers. Cya on other threads:)

Griffith

I do believe I had mentioned that it was under dispute. Does having a pro-life stance cause the research to be invalid?

[yum yum]

I do believe I had mentioned that it was under dispute. Does having a pro-life stance cause the research to be invalid?
Well, he did write: "There is some concern that strong views on both sides of the abortion debate may be influencing the interpretation of research findings."

After reading pages of this discussion I realize that this issue of pro-life vs pro-choice is too big for this forum...a Bleach forum (we're supposed to be :D not like :mad: ).

Practically all key arguments have been presented and it should be enough for now; most of us who have posted have already taken a firm stance so at this point, the most likely direction we're moving towards is a flame war. Quite frankly, these posts are oozing with resentment (IMO)...even people (talking about both sides) who normally act as peacemakers in other threads are taking things a little personal here.

So instead, I'll just see you all in other threads.

[Unicorn]

Practically all key arguments have been presented and it should be enough for now; most of us who have posted have already taken a firm stance so at this point, the most likely direction we're moving towards is a flame war.

Well-said. I completely agree.

[Tifdevil666]

when i said abortion shouldnt be allow...i mean the whole abortion...not just the clinic
doesnt matter.....
just because somethign isnt allowed, doesnt mean it wnot happen.

drugs are illegal in the us. people still get them and suse them.

think back in the prohibition (Sp?) time =/ people would just smuggle alcohol or hide it and stuff.

i think what yosh was saying, was that even if they'd make a law against it, woman could still try and do them theirselves. or get someoene else who isnt really qualifiied ;/ which would be bad for the baby and the womens health. but some women would take that risk

[Ramza]

doesnt matter.....
just because somethign isnt allowed, doesnt mean it wnot happen.

drugs are illegal in the us. people still get them and suse them.

think back in the prohibition (Sp?) time =/ people would just smuggle alcohol or hide it and stuff.

i think what yosh was saying, was that even if they'd make a law against it, woman could still try and do them theirselves. or get someoene else who isnt really qualifiied ;/ which would be bad for the baby and the womens health. but some women would take that risk

drugs are bit different...considering u have to be addicted in the first place to risk getting arrested for hiding drugs etc...

thats y i call those people fools...if they think ahead in the first place to not have sex...this stage wont come

[Tifdevil666]

drugs are bit different...considering u have to be addicted in the first place to risk getting arrested for hiding drugs etc...
you dont have to be addicted =/ hell...you could be holding them, and get caught with them. you could have someone plant them in your locker at school, and if its found, you'd get blamed =/ i know its not exactly the same.i m just saying, even if something is illegal, doesnt mean it wont be done ,_, and to women who want it dont, it wont matter if others support them or dont support it... if they want it done..they'll get it done =/