pro-life,pro-choice

[Hybrid_Affinity]

pro choice really if we don't have choice then your gonna end up with a lot more crack babies from mothers don't care for them. I seriously don't think people understand what a crack child is like even if they are adopted from birth. I don't think anyone should have to go through life like that and it becomes expensive for people to take care of that kid.

Also blaming people for a mistake doesn't help. You want a child to grow up in an environment that is negative, uncaring, where they grow up to hate institutions and then decide they want to be in a gang that starts shooting people.

Also when they abort the brain is at a development level that is equivalent or less then a dog. People don't have a problem with killing dogs. So why should we have a problem killing a group of cells that can't even think yet. Prolife people should be prolife for all animals and everything, otherwise your hipicrits.

stem cell research is done on embryos that haven't developed into really anything yet. stem cell is a cell that can turn into any type of cell and they want to figure out the mysteries to it to cure hundreds of diseases. Are you gonna tell someone that was walking down the street and hit by a drunk driver and ended up being paralyzed that he can never walk again because we don't want to do research on the stuff that will return his life.

All I have to say is Pro life is gonna bring about the end of the world because we are all gonna starve from overpopulation.

[Ramza]

you dont have to be addicted =/ hell...you could be holding them, and get caught with them. you could have someone plant them in your locker at school, and if its found, you'd get blamed =/ i know its not exactly the same.i m just saying, even if something is illegal, doesnt mean it wont be done ,_, and to women who want it dont, it wont matter if others support them or dont support it... if they want it done..they'll get it done =/
ya i know...thats y i find people stupid sometimes....its good that they have abortion to replace the problem....but wouldnt it be easier if they prevented the problem by not having sex in the first place?

just a thought...

[Babbo]

doesnt matter.....
just because somethign isnt allowed, doesnt mean it wnot happen.

drugs are illegal in the us. people still get them and suse them.

think back in the prohibition (Sp?) time =/ people would just smuggle alcohol or hide it and stuff.

i think what yosh was saying, was that even if they'd make a law against it, woman could still try and do them theirselves. or get someoene else who isnt really qualifiied ;/ which would be bad for the baby and the womens health. but some women would take that riskjust cause it something happens (depsite efforts to stop it) doens't make it alright <_<


pro choice really if we don't have choice then your gonna end up with a lot more crack babies from mothers don't care for them. I seriously don't think people understand what a crack child is like even if they are adopted from birth. I don't think anyone should have to go through life like that and it becomes expensive for people to take care of that kid.

Also blaming people for a mistake doesn't help. You want a child to grow up in an environment that is negative, uncaring, where they grow up to hate institutions and then decide they want to be in a gang that starts shooting people.

Also when they abort the brain is at a development level that is equivalent or less then a dog. People don't have a problem with killing dogs. So why should we have a problem killing a group of cells that can't even think yet. Prolife people should be prolife for all animals and everything, otherwise your hipicrits.

stem cell research is done on embryos that haven't developed into really anything yet. stem cell is a cell that can turn into any type of cell and they want to figure out the mysteries to it to cure hundreds of diseases. Are you gonna tell someone that was walking down the street and hit by a drunk driver and ended up being paralyzed that he can never walk again because we don't want to do research on the stuff that will return his life.

All I have to say is Pro life is gonna bring about the end of the world because we are all gonna starve from overpopulation.That's like saying you should abort mentally retarded kids....it's up to the person themself to determine f their lifes gonna suck....deciding for them before they're born is not something people should have a right to <_<

Again, people are born into poor environments despite the existence of abortions; let them decide if life sucks, plnety of people have made successful lives out of origins in bad neighbor hoods <_<

while we're at why don't make the fetus part of everyday diet...don't compare people to pets, only hard core animal rights activists value animal life on an equal level to human life <_<

seriously, asking people to value animals that they (even in the case of dogs in some places) eat is a bad comparison <_<

again just because it can be done doesn't mean it's right, it's like taking a charitable donation from organized crime despite the fact that it's obvious blood money; the intention and the end migh be well meaning but the beginning is what decides what makes it right or wrong <_<

and abortion doens't hurt population growth all that much...as far as babbo knows abortion is rather common in china, but is that stopping the population growth there?

[smidglet]

I will say pro-life..though I do realize there are situations in which abortion is necessary.

[fleezy]

just cause it something happens (depsite efforts to stop it) doens't make it alright <_<

That's like saying you should abort mentally retarded kids....it's up to the person themself to determine f their lifes gonna suck....deciding for them before they're born is not something people should have a right to <_<

Again, people are born into poor environments despite the existence of abortions; let them decide if life sucks, plnety of people have made successful lives out of origins in bad neighbor hoods <_<

while we're at why don't make the fetus part of everyday diet...don't compare people to pets, only hard core animal rights activists value animal life on an equal level to human life <_<

seriously, asking people to value animals that they (even in the case of dogs in some places) eat is a bad comparison <_<

again just because it can be done doesn't mean it's right, it's like taking a charitable donation from organized crime despite the fact that it's obvious blood money; the intention and the end migh be well meaning but the beginning is what decides what makes it right or wrong <_<

and abortion doens't hurt population growth all that much...as far as babbo knows abortion is rather common in china, but is that stopping the population growth there?

that just touches on a major underlying issue in this topic about whether or not the fetus is even considered a baby when the abortion happens. i do think pro-life should be pro-life across the board...otherwise its like parents saying don't drink and downing a 5th right in front of you.

i say pro-choice because i look at it like if the thought of abortion is even coming up as an option, then obviously the baby will not grow up in the best of environments anyway. lack of love, nurturing, possible adoption (and thus resentment and distancing from not knowing your true family)

i think pro-life basically means "our-business", and i'm a firm beleiver that the life of one's child really is none of our business.

[Tifdevil666]

ya i know...thats y i find people stupid sometimes....its good that they have abortion to replace the problem....but wouldnt it be easier if they prevented the problem by not having sex in the first place?

just a thought...
thats just not gonna happen....
sure you can say it
but its not gonna happen ;S

just cause it something happens (depsite efforts to stop it) doens't make it alright <_<never said it made it alright im just saying no matter what people say or do, it'll still happen =/ so why debate it so much ,_, (not saying it shouldnt be debated at all)


again just because it can be done doesn't mean it's right, it's like taking a charitable donation from organized crime despite the fact that it's obvious blood money; the intention and the end migh be well meaning but the beginning is what decides what makes it right or wrong <_<
pft moneys money for a charity ,_, people dotn go around asking where it camef rom and stuff

and abortion doens't hurt population growth all that much...as far as babbo knows abortion is rather common in china, but is that stopping the population growth there?
well if america has over a million a year. that'd be an extra million for us
and thers approx. 46 million abortions in the world each year, and 20 million of them are obtained illegally. thats alot of people <_< lol
and i'd say yes it does help stop population growth in china. in china they can force the abortions =/ to help stop population growth -_- since in some places tehy only even allow you to have 1 child, then the population wont get high, if you'd have another they can just force you to have an abortion. millions die a year there -_- but sure they already have a ton of people, but i'd say thats helping slow down population growth ;/ even though millions are still born each year there.."The birth rate declined from about 45 births per 1,000 people in 1953 to an estimated 13 in 2005, and the death rate dropped from 22 per 1,000 people to an estimated 7. As a result, the annual growth rate declined from about 2.25 percent in 1953 to 0.58 percent in 2005." got that off some encarta thinger ,_,

[Babbo]

never said it made it alright im just saying no matter what people say or do, it'll still happen =/ so why debate it so much ,_, (not saying it shouldnt be debated at all) because it's not morally unacceptable, asnd as a result some effort should be made tos top it even if it is gonna happen anyways <_<



pft moneys money for a charity ,_, people dotn go around asking where it camef rom and stuff actually you'd be suprised <_<
epsecially since major charities are either highly publicized or religously affiliated, being associated something or someone through donations that may be of questionable origins is not a higly desirable thing for them<_<



well if america has over a million a year. that'd be an extra million for us
and thers approx. 46 million abortions in the world each year, and 20 million of them are obtained illegally. thats alot of people <_< lol
and i'd say yes it does help stop population growth in china. in china they can force the abortions =/ to help stop population growth -_- since in some places tehy only even allow you to have 1 child, then the population wont get high, if you'd have another they can just force you to have an abortion. millions die a year there -_- but sure they already have a ton of people, but i'd say thats helping slow down population growth ;/ even
and yet they're population is till steadily increasing by a significant amoun yearly <_<
Yeah but that doens't account for situations such as where the baby would die anyways and on top of that although an extra million might sound significant we do have a rather slow poulation rowth rate (.92 % as of 2005) compared to other countires so it's not like it'd be much of a problem

though millions are still born each year there.."The birth rate declined from about 45 births per 1,000 people in 1953 to an estimated 13 in 2005, and the death rate dropped from 22 per 1,000 people to an estimated 7. As a result, the annual growth rate declined from about 2.25 percent in 1953 to 0.58 percent in 2005." got that off some encarta thinger ,_, But on the other hand that can't be purely attributed to abortion <_<


that just touches on a major underlying issue in this topic about whether or not the fetus is even considered a baby when the abortion happens. i do think pro-life should be pro-life across the board...otherwise its like parents saying don't drink and downing a 5th right in front of you.

i say pro-choice because i look at it like if the thought of abortion is even coming up as an option, then obviously the baby will not grow up in the best of environments anyway. lack of love, nurturing, possible adoption (and thus resentment and distancing from not knowing your true family)

i think pro-life basically means "our-business", and i'm a firm beleiver that the life of one's child really is none of our business.Babbo was tlaking about the child itself, not the parent <_<

[fleezy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

it's not "morally" acceptable?


morality in its very essense is highly subjective, as is justice and "ideal".... to call upon it as a form of looking down upon those who choose to abort is hogwash son...


you're morals in no way have any bearing on mine and by that same right should have no bearing on anyone elses....
the whole debate about abortion basically comes down to people thinking they know what's best for everyone else....

[Babbo]

give me a break dood even some of the most vile people you can meat will have a problem with the idea of murder, the only reason peopledon't think abortion is murder is becaue they've come up with this preconception that unborn children are not alive or human <_<

[fleezy]

preconception??? if things got handled pre-conception this wouldn't even be an issue. har har i'm hilarious...


next time you eat an egg, i will be there to say you are an unborn chicken child murderer, if that's how you want to look at it. i'm sorry if i'm way out of left field on this one but technically life starts at birth. sure you have some archaic motor function and the development of vital organs but at the time of abortion the baby is so underdeveloped that if birth was to take place at that moment the baby would die anyway.

[Ramza]

lol its babbo vs tif.....as always....:D
im still against abortion :D

[Hybrid_Affinity]

Abortion and methods of birth control do lower population growth. Look at Canada it actually would be a declining population growth because most familes only have one kid or no kids. The reason why the population growth doesn't show it declining is because of immigration and adoption.

There is only so many families that will take in a child that is born from another person. Why is that? Could it be that people want to pass on their history, culture, background and characteristics. People want themselves to succeed but having a child at the wrong time or forced into having a child not wanted helps no one. It doesn't help that child that was born and it doesn't help the parent secure a job to support a family.

If the world was perfect, food was plentiful and could make it so all children were completely taken care of so that it didn't cost the parent anything then yes your prolife stance would make sense. The problem with this is that prolife support is usually in a conservative party which has no goals of taken care of people but rather people should take care of themselves ideal. As long as that happens anyone that supports prolife without looking at the rest of the problems is only gonna keep the world in a place that can not develop.

[Tifdevil666]

lol its babbo vs tif.....as always....:D
im still against abortion :D

lol im not even going against him =/
im just stating facts about stuff he says ,_, like the china stuff
cuz he tends to go and just automatically say stuff and assume its right all the time ,_, and doesnt consider what other say ,_,

im just reading the pro-life ones and accepting what they're saying, im not saying "You should be pro-choice, who cares if its "murdur" to people" or whatever ;o

[fleezy]

Abortion and methods of birth control do lower population growth. Look at Canada it actually would be a declining population growth because most familes only have one kid or no kids. The reason why the population growth doesn't show it declining is because of immigration and adoption.

There is only so many families that will take in a child that is born from another person. Why is that? Could it be that people want to pass on their history, culture, background and characteristics. People want themselves to succeed but having a child at the wrong time or forced into having a child not wanted helps no one. It doesn't help that child that was born and it doesn't help the parent secure a job to support a family.

If the world was perfect, food was plentiful and could make it so all children were completely taken care of so that it didn't cost the parent anything then yes your prolife stance would make sense. The problem with this is that prolife support is usually in a conservative party which has no goals of taken care of people but rather people should take care of themselves ideal. As long as that happens anyone that supports prolife without looking at the rest of the problems is only gonna keep the world in a place that can not develop.

bravo. thanks for that.

[uranai]

I just wanted to ask those who say that abortion is murder because the fetus might become a human being... what do you think about fetus in fetus? When something that resembles a human, with legs, arms, a heart, a brain.... lives inside another fetus as a parasite....

[Babbo]

I just wanted to ask those who say that abortion is murder because the fetus might become a human being... what do you think about fetus in fetus? When something that resembles a human, with legs, arms, a heart, a brain.... lives inside another fetus as a parasite....that's the stupidest and most disgusting thing babbo has ever heard...anyways fetus is a scientific term for an unborn child; it already is a human being, and it's not like it can develop into anything else <_<

[epicbard]

that's the stupidest and most disgusting thing babbo has ever heard...anyways fetus is a scientific term for an unborn child; it already is a human being, and it's not like it can develop into anything else <_<my sentiments exactly!

[Ramza]

I just wanted to ask those who say that abortion is murder because the fetus might become a human being... what do you think about fetus in fetus? When something that resembles a human, with legs, arms, a heart, a brain.... lives inside another fetus as a parasite....
lol wth?!
fetus in fetus?
lmao!...sry...cant help it..

[uranai]

A fetus (also foetus) is a developing mammal after the embryonic stage and before birth. The plural is fetuses or foetuses, or, very rarely, foeti.

According to legislation which passed the US Senate in March 2004, an unborn child is defined as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb and who is injured or killed during the commission of a federal crime of violence..". (Unborn Victims of Violence Act, April 2004)

Therefore, a fetus in fetus is a mmeber of the homo sapiens species, becuase it is an unborn child at some stage of develpoment....

It is the most human being thing after humans.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus_in_fetu

[Griffith]

I don't know what's going on, but every single viewpoint of this topic has been completely beaten to death and then some in the thirty some pages of its existence.

[Babbo]

A fetus (also foetus) is a developing mammal after the embryonic stage and before birth. The plural is fetuses or foetuses, or, very rarely, foeti.

According to legislation which passed the US Senate in March 2004, an unborn child is defined as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb and who is injured or killed during the commission of a federal crime of violence..". (Unborn Victims of Violence Act, April 2004)

Therefore, a fetus in fetus is a mmeber of the homo sapiens species, becuase it is an unborn child at some stage of develpoment....

It is the most human being thing after humans.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus_in_fetuthe law doens't even consider fetuses to be alive so babbo wouldn't really use that as a basis for any kind of determenation on what is human or not...and wikipedia despite what some may belive is not the source of all knowledge...just because something is written does not make it an absolue truth <_,

[uranai]

well, that's just another thing to consider when telling what is human from what is not

[Unicorn]

I don't know what's going on, but every single viewpoint of this topic has been completely beaten to death and then some in the thirty some pages of its existence.

I agree. Any more revival of this thread is going to re-start the flame war.

[Hybrid_Affinity]

the law doens't even consider fetuses to be alive so babbo wouldn't really use that as a basis for any kind of determenation on what is human or not...and wikipedia despite what some may belive is not the source of all knowledge...just because something is written does not make it an absolue truth <_,

And just because you say so makes it absolute truth? Babbo you are stating your opinion but he was stating a source there is a big difference between what babbo says is truth and what a documented source says is truth.

Its like some guy coming out of no where and saying aliens are attacking earth by giving us cancer so that the human race will become extinct and take over our planet. Just because he said it doesn't make it true. Why? because there isn't any official source.

[Yoshitsune]

We should gather all the posts on this thread and make it into a book, for people to use as resources and also for some viewpoints, ideas, compelling attractions, and some laughs.

[Babbo]

And just because you say so makes it absolute truth? Babbo you are stating your opinion but he was stating a source there is a big difference between what babbo says is truth and what a documented source says is truth.

Its like some guy coming out of no where and saying aliens are attacking earth by giving us cancer so that the human race will become extinct and take over our planet. Just because he said it doesn't make it true. Why? because there isn't any official source.well babbo done'st get how the idea of a parisitc twin changes the fact of wheter not a fetus is human <_<

na dlike babbo siad, the law has concluded that a fetus isn't even alive ( which is as far from the truth as possible) so babbo wouldn't exactly belive everything it says <_<

[Griffith]

We should gather all the posts on this thread and make it into a book, for people to use as resources and also for some viewpoints, ideas, compelling attractions, and some laughs.

This thread has come back to live again *falls off chair*

I'm going to sift through this entire thread and compile all the different topic arguments and exchanges into one huge post. Then we should make it required reading before ANYONE ever posts in this again LOL.

[Babbo]

or you could just ignore the thread....arguments have been repaeted ove and voer for decades....that ut happens a forum isn't anything other than normal <_<

saw this coming a mile away it's just babbo done'st give a crap....any discussion on something controversial is going to end up with repetition <_<

[Griffith]

or you could just ignore the thread....arguments have been repaeted ove and voer for decades....that ut happens a forum isn't anything other than normal <_<

saw this coming a mile away it's just babbo done'st give a crap....any discussion on something controversial is going to end up with repetition <_<

True, but I have a disease that makes me compulsively go back to bolded posts - especially when it's a topic I have a strong view on like this one (you do too it seems, you've been defending your position since the first page).

[Babbo]

True, but I have a disease that makes me compulsively go back to bolded posts - especially when it's a topic I have a strong view on like this one (you do too it seems, you've been defending your position since the first page).lol babbo started posting in this thread at first cause the forums were nigh dead on a regular basis then :D

well then guess you'll just have to live with this....babbo doens't think it's worth it to monitor this thread for anything other than arguments....it hasn't even reached 100 pages (and it's been here forever) despite the fact that people are repeating each other <_<

[Griffith]

lol babbo started posting in this thread at first cause the forums were nigh dead on a regular basis then :D

well then guess you'll just have to live with this....babbo doens't think it's worth it to monitor this thread for anything other than arguments....it hasn't even reached 100 pages (and it's been here forever) despite the fact that people are repeating each other <_<

Lol it doesn't actually irk me, it's more just amusing=P Bet you a rep it'll never make it off the first page ever again;)

P.S. the ironic part is I was the one who went searching for this thread on the 50th page and dug it up -.-

[nstf]

You might as well ask "are you for science and logic, or are you for religion" because most of these arguements (abortion, death penalty, stem cell research, evolution) all boil down the same lines anyways.

On that note, I'm for science

[Babbo]

You might as well ask "are you for science and logic, or are you for religion" because most of these arguements (abortion, death penalty, stem cell research, evolution) all boil down the same lines anyways.

On that note, I'm for sciencewell except fo the idea of wheter or not fetuses are alive since science does support that <_<

[nstf]

sperm are alive also, doesn't make them a human. But that's besides the point.

My point was this arguement always boils down with the religious on one side, and everybody else on the other, just like the other arguements I listed.

So brining them up is pointless. I could create a thread called "poll, jesus or science" and the split would be the exact same as all those other topics. So all this poll will really show, is who is a christian.

[Griffith]

sperm are alive also, doesn't make them a human. But that's besides the point.

My point was this arguement always boils down with the religious on one side, and everybody else on the other, just like the other arguements I listed.

So brining them up is pointless. I could create a thread called "poll, jesus or science" and the split would be the exact same as all those other topics. So all this poll will really show, is who is a christian.

I see your point, but things are diverse enough these days that it's not so black and white anymore. I consider myself a Christian and I do believe in Jesus and God but I'm fully pro-choice, and the church has no right to say I can't believe in what I want to believe in if I don't support position A or do 'XY'.

[Babbo]

sperm are alive also, doesn't make them a human. But that's besides the point.

My point was this arguement always boils down with the religious on one side, and everybody else on the other, just like the other arguements I listed.

So brining them up is pointless. I could create a thread called "poll, jesus or science" and the split would be the exact same as all those other topics. So all this poll will really show, is who is a christian.erm actually that's not entirely true...you're prolly thinking of hardcore christians that want prayer in school and stuff...most christians aren't like that just like the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists <_<

[choad]

im pro-choice, even thoe i think it is wrong if a women has an abortation, but theres always and if, and that if is..........

what if she was raped and got pregnent?

[Shadow^Demon]

I'm all for choice. I believe that the would-be parent should decide whether or not to place such a large burden on themself.

However, I think most of the pro-choice people on this forum would convert if they saw some of the things I've seen. If you've ever seen an aborted fetus you'll know what I mean. I myself have seen a fetus aborted at 7 months, almost grown. It's a disgusting site but one that will either disturb you or desensitize you. Clearly it was the latter in my case.

What it all comes down to is whether you believe in free will or not. Every issue imaginable is entirely opinionated. As such, there is no "right or wrong" responses, only that which is prefered and that which is not prefered. If you believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion then you will accept both sides of the issue. On the other hand, a narrow-minded person will say something like "it's always wrong to end life" or "you should always have the choice".

[Hybrid_Affinity]

On the other hand, a narrow-minded person will say something like "it's always wrong to end life" or "you should always have the choice".

Actually I disagree with you on that because believing a person should have a choice is not imposing on them something they don't believe in.

The extreme would be we should abort all babies from families with 2 children already.

[Unicorn]

a narrow-minded person will say something like "you should always have the choice".

How can pro-choice be considered be narrow-minded? Pro-choice is accepting the other party's decision, whatever it may be.

[yum yum]

I'm all for choice. I believe that the would-be parent should decide whether or not to place such a large burden on themself.

However, I think most of the pro-choice people on this forum would convert if they saw some of the things I've seen. If you've ever seen an aborted fetus you'll know what I mean. I myself have seen a fetus aborted at 7 months, almost grown. It's a disgusting site but one that will either disturb you or desensitize you. Clearly it was the latter in my case.

What it all comes down to is whether you believe in free will or not. Every issue imaginable is entirely opinionated. As such, there is no "right or wrong" responses, only that which is prefered and that which is not prefered. If you believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion then you will accept both sides of the issue. On the other hand, a narrow-minded person will say something like "it's always wrong to end life" or "you should always have the choice".
Actually I agree with that. I don't think anything is absolute. It's the 'always' that seems wrong to me.

[Hybrid_Affinity]

Look choice in itself is not an extreme. It is the ultimate expression of freedom. Having a group impose its beliefs and rules onto you is what I consider oppression.

Just to set the record straight just because I believe that everyone should have a choice doesn't mean that I wouldn't support a woman that carried and gave birth to my child. I would support her if she had to go through either abortion or birth.

I would even support her if she wanted to abort the next offspring of a god. I mean all of the pro life people talk about how she should give birth because she was stupid enough to have sex but what did Mary ever do to get pregnant?